Relaxation
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-12-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Relaxation
(28-12-2013 02:17 PM)Nineteen Wrote:  You said only a muslim can govern a state and others (nonmuslims) must pay special a tax . I wanted you to prove it a verse and you gave an irrelevant verse as an example . No need to apologise , your learning enough for me .

ok

So govern between the people by that which God has revealed (Islam), and follow not their vain desires, beware of them in case they seduce you from just some part of that which God has revealed to you

Quran 005:049

O you who believe! Obey God, and obey the messenger and then those among you who are in authority; and if you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to God and the messenger's rulings, if you are (in truth) believers in God and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

Quran 004:059

God has promised those of you who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds that, of a certainty, He will make them Khulifa on earth, even as He caused [some of] those who lived before them to become Khulifa; and that, of a certainty, He will firmly establish for them the religion which He has been pleased to bestow on them; and that, of a certainty, He will cause their erstwhile state of fear to be replaced by a sense of security [seeing that] they worship Me [alone], not ascribing divine powers to aught beside Me. But all who, after [having understood] this, choose to deny the truth – it is they, they who are truly iniquitous!"

[24:55]

These are the Verses concerning the subject of state rulership, they establish the concept of a Caliphate and only a Caliphate.
A Caliphate is also not democratic, leaders are not elected but succeed to power as absolute rulers like a absolute monarchy.
"Kufars" or infidels are left out of that equasion of leadership and only mentiond within islmic law in combination to legal restrictions and the special tax.

So you do not deny the special tax anymore?

[Image: RPYH95t.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-12-2013, 02:33 PM
RE: Relaxation
(28-12-2013 02:05 PM)Nineteen Wrote:  Please read my posts several times over and over again and think about them . Being ignorant is bad , but can be overcome . The worst thing is to insist on being ignorant .

Yeah, so much for that 'don't be arrogant' thing.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Anjele's post
28-12-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Relaxation
(28-12-2013 02:30 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  ok

So govern between the people by that which God has revealed (Islam), and follow not their vain desires, beware of them in case they seduce you from just some part of that which God has revealed to you

Quran 005:049

O you who believe! Obey God, and obey the messenger and then those among you who are in authority; and if you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to God and the messenger's rulings, if you are (in truth) believers in God and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.

Quran 004:059

God has promised those of you who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds that, of a certainty, He will make them Khulifa on earth, even as He caused [some of] those who lived before them to become Khulifa; and that, of a certainty, He will firmly establish for them the religion which He has been pleased to bestow on them; and that, of a certainty, He will cause their erstwhile state of fear to be replaced by a sense of security [seeing that] they worship Me [alone], not ascribing divine powers to aught beside Me. But all who, after [having understood] this, choose to deny the truth – it is they, they who are truly iniquitous!"

[24:55]

These are the Verses concerning the subject of state rulership, they establish the concept of a Caliphate and only a Caliphate.
A Caliphate is also not democratic, leaders are not elected but succeed to power as absolute rulers like a absolute monarchy.
"Kufars" or infidels are left out of that equasion of leadership and only mentiond within islmic law in combination to legal restrictions and the special tax.

So you do not deny the special tax anymore?


Fail again .

Verse 5:49 , addressing the prophet .

Verse 4:59 , want muslims to obey authority amongst muslims . This does not mean muslims cannot obey non-muslim authority . Think about it , I will explain in more detailed way if you cant understand .

Verse 24:55 is a promise by Allah that muslims (who tightly wound Quran) will be successors and "khalifa" of Allah . Khalifa means "representative" .
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-12-2013, 03:06 PM
RE: Relaxation
(28-12-2013 02:50 PM)Nineteen Wrote:  Fail again .

Verse 5:49 , addressing the prophet .

So what!? The quoran clearly indicates that muslims should follow his example. So this does not discredit the argument in any way.

So govern between the people by that which God has revealed (Islam)

Clearly demands that governance only works in accordance to islam.

, and follow not their vain desires, beware of them in case they seduce you from just some part of that which God has revealed to you

And warns from following any other form of governance.

Quote:Verse 4:59 , want muslims to obey authority amongst muslims . This does not mean muslims cannot obey non-muslim authority . Think about it , I will explain in more detailed way if you cant understand .

Not true.

Quote:O you who believe! Obey God, and obey the messenger and then those among you who are in authority

clearly adresses the followers and especialy those followers who are in authority.

and if you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to God and the messenger's rulings

This clearly points out after mentioning the followers who have authority that should questions concerning legal matters turn up -they shall solve them in accordance to the quoran.





Quote:Verse 24:55 is a promise by Allah that muslims (who tightly wound Quran) will be successors and "khalifa" of Allah . Khalifa means "representative" .

Not true.

God has promised those of you who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds that, of a certainty, He will make them Khulifa on earth

It clearly outlines how only muslims can be Khulifa - a Khalifa is indeed a representative = the representative of gods law on earth, hence - ruler.


And answere the question. Do you still deny the special tax?

[Image: RPYH95t.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes The Germans are coming's post
28-12-2013, 03:27 PM (This post was last modified: 28-12-2013 03:35 PM by Nineteen.)
RE: Relaxation
(28-12-2013 03:06 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  So what!? The quoran clearly indicates that muslims should follow his example. So this does not discredit the argument in any way.

So govern between the people by that which God has revealed (Islam)

Clearly demands that governance only works in accordance to islam.

, and follow not their vain desires, beware of them in case they seduce you from just some part of that which God has revealed to you

And warns from following any other form of governance.

Yes you're right about muslims will behave the same way which have been ordered to prophet by Allah . A muslim must govern the people according to Allah's rules . Still this does not mean a country must be governed by a muslim .


(28-12-2013 03:06 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Not true.

Quote:O you who believe! Obey God, and obey the messenger and then those among you who are in authority

clearly adresses the followers and especialy those followers who are in authority.

and if you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to God and the messenger's rulings

This clearly points out after mentioning the followers who have authority that should questions concerning legal matters turn up -they shall solve them in accordance to the quoran.

I'm telling you to understand more comfortable , if I would say I love cats , this would not mean I dont like dogs .

Verse want muslims to obey muslim managers and adds ; if you have doubts about their correctness (managers) , Quran or the prophet is a guide for you .

(28-12-2013 03:06 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Not true.

God has promised those of you who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds that, of a certainty, He will make them Khulifa on earth

It clearly outlines how only muslims can be Khulifa - a Khalifa is indeed a representative = the representative of gods law on earth, hence - ruler.

And answere the question. Do you still deny the special tax?

So you're trying to change the meaning of Khalifa according to your intrest ?
For example I'm a khalifa of Islam on earth and I dont rule the world .

Ops sorry , yes there is no such a tax , the meaning of "jizyah" is "siezing everyhing except needs of people" . For example I'm gonna take your sofa set , TV , playstation , paintings on the wall , carpets etc ... leaving only a saucepan for cooking and a bed for sleeping : )
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-12-2013, 03:43 PM
RE: Relaxation
(28-12-2013 11:49 AM)Nineteen Wrote:  
(28-12-2013 11:09 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Nope. Because Islam cements that only a muslim with supreme authoritarian powers can rule a state.

And non muslims have to pay a secial tax under islamic rule.

Can you prove that with a verse from Quran ?

prove something with a verse from the quaran.....
Are you nuts?
The same way the verses are no proof for all the BS claims ,the same way no verse is proof of his claim

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Lightvader's post
28-12-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Relaxation
(28-12-2013 03:27 PM)Nineteen Wrote:  Yes you're right about muslims will behave the same way which have been ordered to prophet by Allah . A muslim must govern the people according to Allah's rules . Still this does not mean a country must be governed by a muslim .

Yet if god tells Muhammed to rule as allah has "revealed" to him, and muslims are to follow his example, this means only a person who rules in accordance to allahs rules can rule, hence a muslim.



Quote:I'm telling you to understand more comfortable , if I would say I love cats , this would not mean I dont like dogs .

We are talking about an early medieval society here. a society which believed that the earth was flat and which has lived through theocratic leadership for centuries and has continued to do so until the fall of the ottoman empire (not in the arab world) do you really think that this in any way consideres non muslim leadership????

Because if yes, then that is clearly your interpertation and not the one of the past and current muslim rulers.

Quote:Verse want muslims to obey muslim managers and adds ; if you have doubts about their correctness (managers) , Quran or the prophet is a guide for you .

managers..................

are you serious?

The quoran was writen in a time in which the concept of a professional manager did not even exist. That concept came into existance through French commerce in 18th century stock trading when trading no longer required the investors full attention and could be done by people payed for overlooking the buisness transactions. The very word manager - is a francophone - meaning that it originates out of the French language.

Other than that, the verse clearly adresses:

those among you who are in authority

Which is a statement directed towards political leadership and not towards authority given through commerce - because political and commercial power were the same thing in this medieval tribal society.


Quote:So you're trying to change the meaning of Khalifa according to your intrest ?
For example I'm a khalifa of Islam on earth and I dont rule the world .

No you are not. A Caliph is a representative of allah and his prophet aswell as the head of an islamic state.

You change the word because you feel uncomfortable with the meaning it actualy has and how it does not fit into the 21st century.

I didnt pull the meaning out of nowhere. I read the meaning of that word in the quoran and every dictonary I look up gives the same definition, including wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph

So either the Caliph is the head of an Islamic state, or there is an international conspiracy of all publishers, scolars, akademics and quoran translators and publishers to change the meaning of that word.



Oh yeah. Do you still deny the existance of the special tax?

[Image: RPYH95t.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-12-2013, 03:47 PM
RE: Relaxation
(28-12-2013 03:27 PM)Nineteen Wrote:  
(28-12-2013 03:06 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  So what!? The quoran clearly indicates that muslims should follow his example. So this does not discredit the argument in any way.

So govern between the people by that which God has revealed (Islam)

Clearly demands that governance only works in accordance to islam.

, and follow not their vain desires, beware of them in case they seduce you from just some part of that which God has revealed to you

And warns from following any other form of governance.

Yes you're right about muslims will behave the same way which have been ordered to prophet by Allah . A muslim must govern the people according to Allah's rules . Still this does not mean a country must be governed by a muslim .


(28-12-2013 03:06 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Not true.


clearly adresses the followers and especialy those followers who are in authority.

and if you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to God and the messenger's rulings

This clearly points out after mentioning the followers who have authority that should questions concerning legal matters turn up -they shall solve them in accordance to the quoran.

I'm telling you to understand more comfortable , if I would say I love cats , this would not mean I dont like dogs .

Verse want muslims to obey muslim managers and adds ; if you have doubts about their correctness (managers) , Quran or the prophet is a guide for you .

(28-12-2013 03:06 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Not true.

God has promised those of you who have attained to faith and do righteous deeds that, of a certainty, He will make them Khulifa on earth

It clearly outlines how only muslims can be Khulifa - a Khalifa is indeed a representative = the representative of gods law on earth, hence - ruler.

And answere the question. Do you still deny the special tax?

So you're trying to change the meaning of Khalifa according to your intrest ?
For example I'm a khalifa of Islam on earth and I dont rule the world .

Ops sorry , yes there is no such a tax , the meaning of "jizyah" is "siezing everyhing except needs of people" . For example I'm gonna take your sofa set , TV , playstation , paintings on the wall , carpets etc ... leaving only a saucepan for cooking and a bed for sleeping : )

Really? You deny the existence of this tax?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-12-2013, 03:49 PM
RE: Relaxation
(28-12-2013 03:43 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  prove something with a verse from the quaran.....
Are you nuts?
The same way the verses are no proof for all the BS claims ,the same way no verse is proof of his claim

Islam = Quran , if you have a claim about Islam , you have to prove it by using Quran . Muslims believes only one God , so Allah . Quran is words of Allah .


You cannot prove anything by using Quran , you know that .
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-12-2013, 03:52 PM
RE: Relaxation
(28-12-2013 01:49 PM)Nineteen Wrote:  
(28-12-2013 11:55 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

—Qur'an, [Quran 9:29]


9:29 utu el kitabe or ehl-i kitab , those who believe in Allah/God/Jehovah (all the same) but reject his rules and tries to change religious books and laws according to their intrests . Verse says fight against them till they give up to mislead people .

In order to understand better ; (2:109), (2:145), (2:146), (3:19), (3:64), (3:65), (3:67), (3:69), (3:70), (3:71), (3:75), (3:78), (3:100), (3:110), (3:113), (3:114), (3:187), (3:199), (4:47), (4:153), (4:154), (4:156), (4:157), (4:159), (4:171), (5:51), (5:57), (5:65) ....etc

Fight agains them till they pay the "jizyah" .

Jizyah is a war reparations including a one time needs to be paid , not a tax type . But can be paid in installments .
these are the first 3 links when searching jizyah

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/304125/jizya http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Jizyah_(Tax) http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

don't lie to us in the age of the internet

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Lightvader's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: