Religion Poisons Everything
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23-12-2014, 07:13 PM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(23-12-2014 06:56 PM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  My point is that the idea that religion leads to violence is open to debate; but the evidence in support of that claim is thousands of acts of violence carried out by thousands of individuals over thousands of years in the name of thousands of gods.

↑ This. Is. Undeniable.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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24-12-2014, 07:58 AM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
On the evidence I am aware of I don't believe religion is commonly a root cause for violence. However, I do think it is an effective catalyst that can;
* Take a tense situation and draw clear boundaries between "us" and "them": Muslim vs Christian, Shia vs Sunni, etc.
* Provide a means of demonizing and dehumanising the out group: They don't even follow our all important religious practice
* Provide a means of organising the in group: Attend Building every day of Thor to receive instruction
* Provide a necessary spark: Verse 23 of the book of Thor says to smite the evildoer
That said, in the absence of religion other catalysts can be found: Ideologies behind the foundation of the USSR, etc

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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24-12-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(23-12-2014 06:56 PM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  I'm not saying that religion causes people to commit atrocities, but it sure isn't very effective in preventing them! You're the one who brought horse-cock-sucking into this, lol. My point is that the idea that religion leads to violence is open to debate; but the evidence in support of that claim is thousands of acts of violence carried out by thousands of individuals over thousands of years in the name of thousands of gods.

Pretty much the entire human population past and present have been religious, with just a few specks of non-religious folks.

And people who act violently justify their actions within their belief systems, whatever they may be. Consider the Reign of Terror, where atrocities were committed in the name of science and reason, and whose participants and leaders were folks with beliefs systems that arose out of the enlightenment.

In fact the history of anti-theism, and state sponsored atheism, has been remarkably violent and disgusting as well.

There are over billions upon billions of religious people past and present. This population is nearly the equivalent of the entire human population as a whole. You basically have an infinite smorgasbord of every human act imaginable to select from. If you want to find thousands of examples of atrocities you'll find them, if you want to find countless acts of compassion and benevolence, you'll find them as well.

But what I really want to see, is the claim of religious harm rise above the level of a campaign slogan, and to be argued with even a modicum of depth. We're approaching 14 years of hearing that trumpet being sounded, without an iota of depth, or thoughtful analysis ever arising to the surface.

What makes this reek of hypocrisy, is that the masses repeating this slogan, are the same ones advocating for reason, skepticism and rational thinking. But apparently this doesn't apply to their own bullshit.

If after 15 years, the best you can do is list a series of atrocities committed by religious people, without exploring any of these atrocities with even a sprinkle of depth, on what this all says about the power of beliefs, there role on human nature, how violence arises, etc...., you really shouldn't call yourself a critical thinker, or a skeptic.
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28-12-2014, 02:23 AM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(24-12-2014 08:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If after 15 years, the best you can do is list a series of atrocities committed by religious people, without exploring any of these atrocities with even a sprinkle of depth, on what this all says about the power of beliefs, there role on human nature, how violence arises, etc...., you really shouldn't call yourself a critical thinker, or a skeptic.

If you call yourself a religious believer and a skeptic, then you really suck at one of those two things. Drinking Beverage

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28-12-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(24-12-2014 07:58 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  That said, in the absence of religion other catalysts can be found: Ideologies behind the foundation of the USSR, etc

Yes, the problem is not a particular ideology, but ideology itself.

Actually, to get even more basic, the problem is men.
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28-12-2014, 01:55 PM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
Whoa Tomasia, can I be the president of your fan club? Sorry to drool, but you really are doing a great job everywhere I find you.

Here's an attempt to keep up....

As far as I know, violence of one level or another has sprung up in every time and place in human history. This suggests the root of the problem is deeper than some particular group of people.

As far as I know, every ideology that's ever existed divides externally against other ideologies (we are the best! etc) and even more telling the ideology divides internally in to factions and subfactions. This suggests the root of the problem is deeper than any particular ideology, because all ideologies seem to experience this division process, and wind up in conflict with somebody.

So the next question should be, what do all people and all ideologies have in common?

And the answer is, thought.

Thought is inherently divisive, that's how it works. That's why division and violence appear everywhere that humans exist. All humans experience thought.

Religions and other ideologies like communism try to fix this by thinking a bunch of wonderful thoughts, but thought is thought is thought, so they wind up fueling the divisions instead healing them.

A key weakness of religion (and anti-religion) is that they both use the very thing causing the problem to try to fix the problem. It's like trying to cure an alcoholic with a case of scotch, the harder you try, the behinder you get.

That's why no ideology has ever solved the problem of violence, that which all ideologies are made of is inherently divisive in nature.
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28-12-2014, 02:17 PM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(23-12-2014 01:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yes, what better way to foster a rational and critical examination of harmfulness of religion, than a series of selective antidotes anecdotes, and personal experiences gleamed gleaned from a population of several billion people, to rile rally the masses to the cause. Religion makes such a compelling scapegoat.

You're welcome.

Quote:I'm still trying to figure out why I haven't gone and blown up a building yet, or murdered an abortion doctor, or stabbed a man for eating shell-fish.

Because you have the morality and ethics that you learned from your society.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-12-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(23-12-2014 03:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But let's think of the proposition for a minute. If religion as opposed to non-religion has the unique and profound capacity to get people to do certain things, like blow themselves up, is this unique and profound aspect of it one dimensional? Does it only have the power to get people to commit atrocities, but not commit profound benevolent acts, such as coming to the aid of ebola victims at the risk of one's own health, in a way that non-religion is not able to do?

Yet another strawman - you need to stop doing that. No one said religion is unique in being able to motivate horrible actions.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-12-2014, 02:25 PM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
Quote:I'm still trying to figure out why I haven't gone and blown up a building yet, or murdered an abortion doctor, or stabbed a man for eating shell-fish.

Perhaps you are a shitty xtian? After all, you claim your god told you to do so. Why have you not obeyed?

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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28-12-2014, 02:35 PM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(28-12-2014 02:25 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:I'm still trying to figure out why I haven't gone and blown up a building yet, or murdered an abortion doctor, or stabbed a man for eating shell-fish.

Perhaps you are a shitty xtian? After all, you claim your god told you to do so. Why have you not obeyed?

Gotta have some sins to repent from? God's gotta be pretty pissed with him by now.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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