Religion Poisons Everything
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28-12-2014, 03:01 PM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(28-12-2014 02:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-12-2014 03:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But let's think of the proposition for a minute. If religion as opposed to non-religion has the unique and profound capacity to get people to do certain things, like blow themselves up, is this unique and profound aspect of it one dimensional? Does it only have the power to get people to commit atrocities, but not commit profound benevolent acts, such as coming to the aid of ebola victims at the risk of one's own health, in a way that non-religion is not able to do?

Yet another strawman - you need to stop doing that. No one said religion is unique in being able to motivate horrible actions.


If it's not anything unique to religion that motivates horrible actions, what is it then?
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28-12-2014, 03:09 PM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(28-12-2014 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If it's not anything unique to religion that motivates horrible actions, what is it then?

Take a wild guess? It's our sinful nature innit. Goddamn I knew there was a reason I left religion. You get better sex too.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-12-2014, 04:47 PM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(28-12-2014 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 02:22 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yet another strawman - you need to stop doing that. No one said religion is unique in being able to motivate horrible actions.


If it's not anything unique to religion that motivates horrible actions, what is it then?

Blind, uncritical adherence to an ideology, be it religious, political, or philosophical.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-12-2014, 05:47 PM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(28-12-2014 04:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 03:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If it's not anything unique to religion that motivates horrible actions, what is it then?

Blind, uncritical adherence to an ideology, be it religious, political, or philosophical.

If so, does it only work one way though? Can it produce both uniquely horrible actions and uniquely good actions so to say? Can it motivate both a hateful form of violence and perhap even a loving form of non-violence?

Can it drive men to blow themselves up, and drive men to sell all their possessions and dedicate their lives to the poor? Motivate both profound malevolence and benevolence?

Or is its power to motivate one sided?
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29-12-2014, 12:19 AM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(28-12-2014 05:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 04:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  Blind, uncritical adherence to an ideology, be it religious, political, or philosophical.

If so, does it only work one way though? Can it produce both uniquely horrible actions and uniquely good actions so to say? Can it motivate both a hateful form of violence and perhap even a loving form of non-violence?

Can it drive men to blow themselves up, and drive men to sell all their possessions and dedicate their lives to the poor? Motivate both profound malevolence and benevolence?

Or is its power to motivate one sided?

If you're not critical about your thoughts and actions, how will you know? Facepalm

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29-12-2014, 07:10 AM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(29-12-2014 12:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 05:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If so, does it only work one way though? Can it produce both uniquely horrible actions and uniquely good actions so to say? Can it motivate both a hateful form of violence and perhap even a loving form of non-violence?

Can it drive men to blow themselves up, and drive men to sell all their possessions and dedicate their lives to the poor? Motivate both profound malevolence and benevolence?

Or is its power to motivate one sided?

If you're not critical about your thoughts and actions, how will you know? Facepalm

How would I know what?

I asked someone who believed uncritical, blind adherence to an ideology can produce uniquely horrible acts, if it can produce unique non-horrible acts as well, seemingly benevolent acts, encourage love of others, and non-violent protests, just as much as encouraging people to blow themselves.

The only critical thinking or absence of critical thinking that matters here is of those who made the claim about the powers of blind adherence to ideology. The question I asked is one that any one who consider themselves a critical thinker should be asking, either that or risk being accused of a blind belief in a polemic, or an anti-theistic ideology.
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29-12-2014, 07:48 AM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
That's so cute Tomasia. You put the words together as if you almost understood what they actually meant.

For one who seems so hell-bent on lecturing everyone else on how to think, you seem to really suck at it yourself. So I take it you have little familiarity with the Socratic method?

(29-12-2014 07:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-12-2014 12:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If you're not critical about your thoughts and actions, how will you know? Facepalm
How would I know what?

Introspection has little weight if you're not truly critical and willing to throw yourself under the bus if need be. So if someone is an uncritical adherent of a particular idea (such as an ideology, creed, or religion), how can they come to realize they may be mistaken if they never question it?



(29-12-2014 07:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I asked someone who believed uncritical, blind adherence to an ideology can produce uniquely horrible acts, if it can produce unique non-horrible acts as well, seemingly benevolent acts, encourage love of others, and non-violent protests, just as much as encouraging people to blow themselves.

Which coming from you reads like concern trolling rather than a genuine inquiry. Because, you know, you're a hypocritical douchbag.



(29-12-2014 07:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The only critical thinking or absence of critical thinking that matters here is of those who made the claim about the powers of blind adherence to ideology.

Follow the logic with me, then maybe if you're a good boy, we'll give you back your crayons so you can color in the lines.

Uncritical adherence to an ideology is not good because it is... say it with me now... BLIND!


(29-12-2014 07:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The question I asked is one that any one who consider themselves a critical thinker should be asking, either that or risk being accused of a blind belief in a polemic, or an anti-theistic ideology.

Oh joy, lets all sit down as the professed theist lectures us about critical thinking. Once again, if you consider yourself a religious believer (and religion requires the acceptance of certain ideas that cannot be questioned but rather must be accepted) and a skeptic, you must really suck at one of those two things.


TL;DR
Introspection is critical to critical thought, and blind adherence is the antithesis of that. Your concern trolling and ineffectual lecturing on skepticism can fuck right off. Drinking Beverage

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29-12-2014, 08:51 AM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(28-12-2014 05:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 04:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  Blind, uncritical adherence to an ideology, be it religious, political, or philosophical.

If so, does it only work one way though? Can it produce both uniquely horrible actions and uniquely good actions so to say? Can it motivate both a hateful form of violence and perhap even a loving form of non-violence?

Can it drive men to blow themselves up, and drive men to sell all their possessions and dedicate their lives to the poor? Motivate both profound malevolence and benevolence?

Or is its power to motivate one sided?

Blind adherence would possibly result in short-term benefit, but not every problem or situation will have an appropriate response or action consistent with the ideology - and that is where the problem lies.

Without critical thinking, the ideologue becomes immune to perception of reality.
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29-12-2014, 09:41 AM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(29-12-2014 07:48 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So if someone is an uncritical adherent of a particular idea (such as an ideology, creed, or religion), how can they come to realize they may be mistaken if they never question it?
...
Which coming from you reads like concern trolling rather than a genuine inquiry. Because, you know, you're a hypocritical douchbag.
....
Follow the logic with me, then maybe if you're a good boy, we'll give you back your crayons so you can color in the lines.

Uncritical adherence to an ideology is not good because it is... say it with me now... BLIND!

Well, it appears you haven't been following along with the conversation, since you seem to be confusing a question of whether uncritical adherence to an ideology is good or not, with one about the "motivating power" of uncritical adherence to an ideology. This happens when you hastily interject yourself into a conversations, but don't take the appropriate time to read through it to understand what it's about.

As far as accusing me of being a concern troll, that's far from the case here. I do ask the question quite seriously, but with a dose of cynicism based on past experience where it becomes fairly apparent that proponents of this view haven't thought this far, haven't ventured past the appealing polemic, to provide something of substance, or anything even remotely appearing to be a product of a healthy dose of skepticism or critical thinking.

The cynicism is likely why you might perceive some snark on my part. Past experiences have conditioned me to have low expectations, but I do understand Chas to be a thoughtful contributor, so perhaps he'll provide something that would surprise me.

Regardless of snark and cynicism, I would still take his answers quite seriously, and respond accordingly to those answers.

But as for as your questions are concerned, since they're based on a misunderstanding of the point being raised, they'll just go by ignored, until you can revise them to address what is actually being said, rather than addressing a series of false assumptions.

Quote:Oh joy, lets all sit down as the professed theist lectures us about critical thinking. Once again, if you consider yourself a religious believer (and religion requires the acceptance of certain ideas that cannot be questioned but rather must be accepted) and a skeptic, you must really suck at one of those two things.

Maybe, but since I don't apply such terms to myself, the criticism doesn't all that matter.

Quote:Introspection is critical to critical thought, and blind adherence is the antithesis of that.

Agreed, though this point is irrelevant.
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29-12-2014, 09:49 AM
RE: Religion Poisons Everything
(29-12-2014 08:51 AM)Chas Wrote:  Blind adherence would possibly result in short-term benefit, but not every problem or situation will have an appropriate response or action consistent with the ideology - and that is where the problem lies.

Without critical thinking, the ideologue becomes immune to perception of reality.

Maybe, but you seem to agree, that blind adherence can lead to malevolent actions, as well as benevolent actions, horrible and non-horrible actions. It's not particularly one sided, even if the benefit is one that is short-term.

Would you say the same applies to non-blind adherence to an ideology/clear-sighted adherence to an ideology, that it can produce the same things, malevolent and benevolent results?

If so, what's the difference between blind and non-blind adherence? Merely that one produces short-term results, while the other produces long-term results, regardless if those results are destructive or creative, benevolent or malevolent?

Is the only uniqueness a matter of sustaining power?
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