Religion + Science = Twin Brothers??
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11-04-2013, 07:41 AM
Religion + Science = Twin Brothers??
Once more they try to equate their religious faith with our scientific truths. And, once more, we puncture a hole in their balloon..




"that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" Christopher Hitchens
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11-04-2013, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2013 05:33 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Religion + Science = Twin Brothers??
Religion and science has always been at war. From Thomas Hobbes Leviathan forwards it's been a fight for acceptance.

[Image: 200px-Leviathan_gr.jpg]

Hobbes has been accused of atheism, or (in the case of Bramhall) of teachings which could lead to atheism. This was an important accusation, and Hobbes himself wrote, in his answer to Bramhall's "the catching of the Leviathan" that "atheism, impiety, and the like are words of the greatest defamation possible". Hobbes always defended himself from such accusations. In more recent times also, much has been made of his religious views by scholars such as Richard Tuck and J. G. A. Pocock, but there is still widespread disagreement about the exact significance of Hobbes's unusual views on religion.

As Martinich (1995, p. 31) has pointed out, in Hobbes's time, the term "atheist" was frequently applied to people who believed in God, but not divine providence, or to people who believed in God, but also maintained other beliefs which were inconsistent with such belief. He says that this "sort of discrepancy has led to many errors in determining who was an atheist in the early modern period". In this extended early modern sense of atheism, Hobbes did indeed take positions which were in strong disagreement with church teachings of his time. For example, Hobbes argued repeatedly that there are no incorporeal substances, and that all things, including human thoughts, and even God, heaven, and hell are corporeal, matter in motion. He argued that "though Scripture acknowledge spirits, yet doth it nowhere say, that they are incorporeal, meaning thereby without dimensions and quantity". (In this view, Hobbes claimed to be following Tertullian, whose views were not condemned in the Nicene creed.) He also, like Locke, stated that true revelation can never be in disagreement with human reason and experience, although he also argues that people should accept revelation and its interpretations also for the reason that they should accept the commands of their sovereign, in order to avoid war.

Hobbes produced this work positing that natural laws governed the universe, and that natural rights applied to human beings. The church banned his book. However others took to his work and developed human rights, science, ethics and even used his ideas in the constitution's of America and France.

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11-04-2013, 05:36 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2013 05:41 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Religion + Science = Twin Brothers??
Oddly enough from the religious debates in France between Protestants, Catholics, and their respective sects lead many to atheism. However atheism being a crime with dire consequences at the time meant that if you wrote anything atheistic, you'd have to do so anonymously.

The first undoubted documents of philosophical atheism (following the narrower, modern definition) appear at the earliest in the mid to late seventeenth century. At some time around 1650 an anonymous manuscript appeared (probably in France) entitled Theophrastus redivivus which appears to be the oldest extant atheistic document; in the last quarter of the same century another anonymous manuscript, the Symbolum sapientiae was in circulation.

These clandestine manuscripts were for the most part written by hand or sometimes printed illegally. Some of them - such as the Symbolum sapientiae - are solidly argued and often had an important influence on later public atheists. However, these documents at first remained unknown to the broader public. At the time of their first appearance they were read by a very small number of people. In general, there was a great deal of talk about atheism on the part of religious apologists, but no genuine atheists were known to them.

http://www.vc.unipmn.it/~mori/e-texts/



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11-04-2013, 06:20 PM
RE: Religion + Science = Twin Brothers??
Religion + STATE (once upon a time) = twin brothers. Zero's right, though; Religion has always been at war with Science. And it'll keep fighting tenaciously until Science can dispell it for good!
Excellent video strat ^^^

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11-04-2013, 06:26 PM
RE: Religion + Science = Twin Brothers??
Religion is the evil twin.

That's the way it works, right? One twin is always the evil one, like Spock with the beard. Right? Tongue

Nonsense is nonsense, but the history of nonsense is a very important science.
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11-04-2013, 06:58 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2013 07:07 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Religion + Science = Twin Brothers??
(11-04-2013 06:20 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Religion + STATE (once upon a time) = twin brothers. Zero's right, though; Religion has always been at war with Science. And it'll keep fighting tenaciously until Science can dispell it for good!
Excellent video strat ^^^

During that time religion was what united Europe. To do away with religion was to lose the common thread that held the peace.

Unfortunately in their efforts at trying to socially manipulate and engineer society, it all failed. When information can be transmitted to all people, engineering a society becomes a mistake as people can now see through the lies.

However as time went on and the churches became ever more tolerant. Science progressed, religion diversified, and the two worlds continued to clash ideas to this modern time.

It's a war in the sense that the ideas are opposed to one another, and have been debated for hundreds of years, and will continue to be debated. I prefer a war of ideas rather than an actual war. That way each person has their chance to make up their own minds.

I would never betray the idea of autonomy(liberty), freedom, and equality before the law.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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12-04-2013, 07:54 AM
RE: Religion + Science = Twin Brothers??
(11-04-2013 05:36 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  However atheism being a crime with dire consequences at the time meant that if you wrote anything atheistic, you'd have to do so anonymously.
Even Baron D'Holbach had to write his works using a pseudonym.

(11-04-2013 06:58 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  However as time went on and the churches became ever more tolerant. Science progressed, religion diversified, and the two worlds continued to clash ideas to this modern time.
And today, they are but a shadow of their former glory. As secularism and atheism continues to spread in Europe, religion becomes increasingly irrelevant in the lives of its people.

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12-04-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: Religion + Science = Twin Brothers??
I remember reading something about Europe's dwindling religious afflilations and dying churchs, more and more people declaring their secularism. The article said that before the 2nd world war a majority of populace in most of the countries were religious and/or went to church. Then, after living through the horrors of the war with millions being killed, reality came back and this was one of the biggest reasons for the decline of religion. Now one can hope if only we would see such a decline here, absent of course, of wars or some other catastophe.

"that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" Christopher Hitchens
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