Religion and Obedience
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
31-05-2013, 02:54 AM
Religion and Obedience
Hello, all. This is my first post in the forum, and I look forward to discussing issues that matter with you all.

What contributes the most to my atheistic view, beyond plain science, is an instinctive mistrust of religious institutions. I share Nietzsche's view of them: foul and corrupt. I believe in a moral presence within a person; I am contrary to Nietzsche's ideas in most ways. His painting of religion, though, as a workshop of "wretched" ideas was right on.

Religious institutions demand obedience but not just obedience in actions. Obedience in thought and belief as well. It is a sort of obedience required by few other institutions outside of fascism. I have explored and even admired (while still remaining atheistic) schools of spiritual thought such as Hinduism and Buddhism. As much as I can, I apprehend and accept some of the philosophy woven into these schools of thought. But I find that even these "freethinking" religious institutions can sometimes find ways to turn spiritual and enlightened ideas into cult-like mind control. All religious institutions engage in mind-control at some level. I don't trust them at all.

I believe that one of the greatest "evils" of religion is that it pervades and creates obedience in people, thus destroying their true natures and creating robotic non-thinkers, willing to be complicit in the harming of those around them, so long as this harm can be justified by its doctrine. In this way, religion destroys morality. And also, in inhibiting the growth of individuals, religion itself is distinctly amoral.

Sorry. More an aphorism than a post. Your thoughts?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Vulcan's post
02-06-2013, 04:22 AM
RE: Religion and Obedience
I believe you're right for the most part. One of the few religions that I've observed that doesn't limit growth or destroy morality are Taoism and Buddhism, but even those limit their actions, and to be honest I don't approve of Hinduism. In India they bathe, eat, drink, and even use it as their bathroom, knowing how filthy it is but continue to do so because it is "holy".

Prog rock extraordinaire at your service
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-06-2013, 01:44 AM
RE: Religion and Obedience
I agree with most of your talk. I've watched a talk given by Aron Ra where he states that Hinduism has the oldest known documents. I've also read a bunch of the Genome project writings and totally loved it. I took OT, NT, Interpretation, Doctrine I, and Doctrine II at the university I attended and had many qualms with all of them yet remained a xian for 15 years, moved from literal to metaphorical during that time span and finally said it is all malarkey. Despite being half German I didn't take the following quote as a great one since becoming a nonbeliever: Christianity is the misfortune of the world - Bruno Bauer

Greetings carbon-based bipeds. - Arthur Clarke
The stars died so you could be here today. - Lawrence Krauss
Mathematics is the language of nature. - Lawrence Krauss
I care to live only to entice people to look at Nature's loveliness. - John Muir
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2013, 08:55 PM
RE: Religion and Obedience
Actually, an atheist ought to be able to appreciate Hinduism. When you seperate Hinduism from it's cultural precepts (ie. Caste system, bathroom issues) it is philosophically sound. Has anyone here read the Baghavad Gita? Although it is thoroughly monotheistic, polytheistic, then monotheistic again, an atheist still might glean some wisdom from it. I could write a book on this thesis.
Ratatat: I concur. Buddhism and taoism align with atheism immediately. It's almost as if these philosophies were based on the idea of: "There is no God, therefor what we believe is X"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-06-2013, 12:22 AM
RE: Religion and Obedience
(31-05-2013 02:54 AM)Vulcan Wrote:  Religious institutions demand obedience but not just obedience in actions. Obedience in thought and belief as well. It is a sort of obedience required by few other institutions outside of fascism. I have explored and even admired (while still remaining atheistic) schools of spiritual thought such as Hinduism and Buddhism. As much as I can, I apprehend and accept some of the philosophy woven into these schools of thought. But I find that even these "freethinking" religious institutions can sometimes find ways to turn spiritual and enlightened ideas into cult-like mind control. All religious institutions engage in mind-control at some level. I don't trust them at all.

Whenever possible, I try to avoid stereotypes. Do all religious institutions demand obedience? Probably not. And I'm pretty sure they don't all "engage in mind-control at some level". If it isn't true by definition, then it doesn't logically follow that it is true of all (committing the fallacy of composition and/or hasty generalization).

You'll also find a lot of obedience within atheism. Obviously we don't have a holy book to ascribe to, but there's a general consensus among us (especially those of us with constant contact with other atheists) and "freethinking" in the form of arguing against the popular notions among atheists is frowned upon and treated with disdain. To be fair, I do this often and haven't exactly earned the status of a pariah, but my thoughts are still often dismissed when they don't fall in line.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Starcrash's post
15-07-2013, 06:45 PM
RE: Religion and Obedience
You are spot on. It's not so much the teaching of the religion that is the the important piece of information, but the enforced hierarchy and emotional manipulation is the cornerstone of getting people to accept any irrational belief.

It is very sad, that we still live in a world were telling a child that he/she will be tortured for eternity if they don't follow what the parents/priest says, it is downright abusive.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-07-2013, 12:30 PM
RE: Religion and Obedience
(31-05-2013 02:54 AM)Vulcan Wrote:  Hello, all. This is my first post in the forum, and I look forward to discussing issues that matter with you all.

What contributes the most to my atheistic view, beyond plain science, is an instinctive mistrust of religious institutions. I share Nietzsche's view of them: foul and corrupt. I believe in a moral presence within a person; I am contrary to Nietzsche's ideas in most ways. His painting of religion, though, as a workshop of "wretched" ideas was right on.

Religious institutions demand obedience but not just obedience in actions. Obedience in thought and belief as well. It is a sort of obedience required by few other institutions outside of fascism. I have explored and even admired (while still remaining atheistic) schools of spiritual thought such as Hinduism and Buddhism. As much as I can, I apprehend and accept some of the philosophy woven into these schools of thought. But I find that even these "freethinking" religious institutions can sometimes find ways to turn spiritual and enlightened ideas into cult-like mind control. All religious institutions engage in mind-control at some level. I don't trust them at all.

I believe that one of the greatest "evils" of religion is that it pervades and creates obedience in people, thus destroying their true natures and creating robotic non-thinkers, willing to be complicit in the harming of those around them, so long as this harm can be justified by its doctrine. In this way, religion destroys morality. And also, in inhibiting the growth of individuals, religion itself is distinctly amoral.

Sorry. More an aphorism than a post. Your thoughts?

powers over oneself is the reason of obedience

religions powers represent conditions forces of life to suggest humans reactions disciplines to a positive end out

but political or economical powers can b stronger force to determin humans reactions, bc closer to their own selves conscious realities in life, so the present time
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2013, 01:15 AM
RE: Religion and Obedience
The saddest thing about it all is that 99.99% of religious people don't realize that belief isn't something that you choose, unlike what Pascal would have you to believe.

However, if you consistently engage in activities that arrest your ability to think critically, you won't even have the chance to really think and to therefore make sound judgements based on evidence.

You're completely right about religions (especially the Abrahamic ones) calling for obedience, which stands in opposition to morality because it doesn't ask people to actually make moral judgments based on human suffering and happiness.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-10-2013, 09:47 PM
RE: Religion and Obedience
(31-05-2013 02:54 AM)Vulcan Wrote:  Religious institutions demand obedience but not just obedience in actions. Obedience in thought and belief as well. It is a sort of obedience required by few other institutions outside of fascism.

That's not true. All forms of totalitarian government seek to control behaviour and beliefs. Consider North Korea and (capitalist) China.

Quote: I have explored and even admired (while still remaining atheistic) schools of spiritual thought such as Hinduism and Buddhism.

What about the Hindu caste system? Not much fun being designated Shudra or Untouchable.

Quote:I believe that one of the greatest "evils" of religion is that it pervades and creates obedience in people, thus destroying their true natures and creating robotic non-thinkers, willing to be complicit in the harming of those around them, so long as this harm can be justified by its doctrine. In this way, religion destroys morality. And also, in inhibiting the growth of individuals, religion itself is distinctly amoral.

So do certain political ideologies. Marxist-Leninism and Maosist Communism--for example--are atheistic.

Also: immoral and amoral don't mean the same thing. If something is amoral then it is unconcerned with notions of morality, e.g. a person's hairstyle is an amoral issue. If something is immoral it violates some standard of morality, e.g. murder is immoral. You are arguing that religion is something not good and harmful hence you should say that religion is immoral. If religion were amoral then there would be no cause for your complaint.

Religion is neither necessary nor sufficient to dehumanise and oppress. You should read and/or watch 1984.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  Why Do Most Atheist Let Religion Define Metaphysical Questions? thespiritualanarchist 84 735 Today 01:09 PM
Last Post: cjlr
  On willpower and obedience Hafnof 4 164 03-05-2014 08:44 PM
Last Post: Deidre32
  Is Quantum Mechanics a Science, Philosophy or Religion, or some new age mix of all 3? I and I 55 4,756 18-11-2013 11:25 AM
Last Post: brokensymmetry
  My opinion about people who change of religion viocjit 9 601 01-07-2013 02:21 AM
Last Post: Thanh
  Religion v Atheist : and the winner... isn't the_weedy_seadragon 6 875 28-05-2011 09:35 PM
Last Post: the_weedy_seadragon
  A theory about religion Tim_Kiebooms 6 744 28-04-2011 06:35 PM
Last Post: Peterkin
  Mythology and Religion the same? matt1447 3 1,809 12-11-2010 06:32 PM
Last Post: matt1447
Forum Jump: