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08-03-2017, 10:59 AM
RE: Religion and Politics
(08-03-2017 10:38 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Full Circle Wrote:The priesthood ban had sweeping ecclesiastical consequences for black Mormons. They could not participate in the sacred ordinances, like the endowment ceremony (which prepares one for the afterlife) and sealings (which formally bind a family together), rites that Smith and Young taught were necessary to obtain celestial glory.”

Since when to have priesthood and to participate in temple ordinances is a right?

I don't have priesthood now. But one day I will. Is LDS Church anti-women rights?
If I die without having priesthood I will not be denied celestial glory.

Right now my daughter and my youngest son can not enter Temple and participate in Temple ordinances. Is LDS Church anti children rights?
If a child dies before he or she ever entered Temple in this life, he or she won't be denied to obtain celestial glory.

If a black man didn't have priesthood because he could NOT make this choice - to have or not to have priesthood in this life he still may obtain celestial glory.
If any man or any woman didn't have an opportunity to be member of LDS Church in this life he or she still may obtain celestial glory.

LDS Doctrine was always very, very clear on this. This is what Brigham Young also taught.

How was LDS Church anti-black rights? What rights was LDS Church proposing to take away from black people?

Full Circle Wrote:successor, Brigham Young, who adopted the policies that now haunt the church. He described black people as cursed with dark skin as punishment for Cain’s murder of his brother.
He didn't teach that black people were cursed with dark skin.

Full Circle Wrote:“Any man having one drop of the seed of Cane in him cannot hold the priesthood
Oh, SEED OF CAIN. What if black person didn't have seed of Cain in him? Could this black person have priesthood before 70s?
You are really grasping at straws to defend the indefensible.

If you want to put it in terms marginally friendly to Mormonism, just say that from the time Young took over from Smith until the 1970s, Mormonism was in the grip of an unfortunate heresy, which it has since renounced. Although some would dispute even that it's been truly renounced so much as driven underground, leaving a structural barrier to full black participation in the faith.

This isn't a battle I personally care to pick, as anything that tends to keep African Americans from being sucked into theism is more good than bad in my book. Although of course someone looking to drink some Kool-Aid will just probably get it from some other roadside stand than the Mormon one.

But my point here is that if you want to defend Mormonism as a viable and internally consistent and ethical belief-system, you don't accomplish that by excusing Brigham Young or the church's capitulation to his explicit and unmistakable racism.
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08-03-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: Religion and Politics
Better be a little more careful in checking your facts, Alla.

Brigham Young very much did say that black people were cursed. It's in a speech he gave on Feb 5th 1852, the text of which you can find here: Brigham Young's Speech on Slavery, Blacks, and the Priesthood

The salient quote:
Quote:If there never was a prophet, or apostle of Jesus Christ spoke it before, I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the children of old Cain. I know they are, I know that they cannot bear rule in the preisthood, for the curse on them was to remain upon them, until the resedue of the posterity of Michal and his wife receive the blessings, the seed of Cain would have received had they not been cursed; and hold the keys of the preisthood, until the times of the restitution shall come, and the curse be wiped off from the earth, and from michals seed.

He also confirmed that he thought "black people" were not fit for Government but were fit for servitude:

Quote:Therefore I will not consent for one moment to have an african dictate me or any Bren. with regard to Church or State Government. I may vary in my veiwes from others, and they may think I am foolish in the things I have spoken, and think that they know more than I do, but I know I know more than they do. If the Affricans cannot bear rule in the Church of God, what buisness have they to bear rule in the State and Government affairs of this Territory or any others?
and
Quote:It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed of Cain for servants
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08-03-2017, 12:08 PM
RE: Religion and Politics
(08-03-2017 10:38 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Full Circle Wrote:The priesthood ban had sweeping ecclesiastical consequences for black Mormons. They could not participate in the sacred ordinances, like the endowment ceremony (which prepares one for the afterlife) and sealings (which formally bind a family together), rites that Smith and Young taught were necessary to obtain celestial glory.”

Since when to have priesthood and to participate in temple ordinances is a right?

I don't have priesthood now. But one day I will. Is LDS Church anti-women rights?
If I die without having priesthood I will not be denied celestial glory.

Right now my daughter and my youngest son can not enter Temple and participate in Temple ordinances. Is LDS Church anti children rights?
If a child dies before he or she ever entered Temple in this life, he or she won't be denied to obtain celestial glory.

If a black man didn't have priesthood because he could NOT make this choice - to have or not to have priesthood in this life he still may obtain celestial glory.
If any man or any woman didn't have an opportunity to be member of LDS Church in this life he or she still may obtain celestial glory.

LDS Doctrine was always very, very clear on this. This is what Brigham Young also taught.

How was LDS Church anti-black rights? What rights was LDS Church proposing to take away from black people?

Full Circle Wrote:successor, Brigham Young, who adopted the policies that now haunt the church. He described black people as cursed with dark skin as punishment for Cain’s murder of his brother.
He didn't teach that black people were cursed with dark skin.

Full Circle Wrote:“Any man having one drop of the seed of Cane in him cannot hold the priesthood
Oh, SEED OF CAIN. What if black person didn't have seed of Cain in him? Could this black person have priesthood before 70s?

You go on telling yourself whatever you need to so you can sleep well at night.
You can call a cat a helicopter, but it doesn’t make it so. No

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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08-03-2017, 12:19 PM
RE: Religion and Politics
(08-03-2017 04:07 AM)psiclark Wrote:  I think that one of the main evils in the modern day committed by religions all around the world is it trying to take rights away from people as those people don't fit with the said religions criteria.

The Mormons were up until the 70's a largely anti black organisation, the Catholics are anti-gay rights, and there are many other examples I do not care to list. What authority do they hold that allows them to dictate the way people can and can't live? They have no authority but the authority they have given themselves.

That authority has been reinforced by the centuries of them ruling society, persecuting those who defy them. Who are they to dictate what people can and cant do when those people are doing nothing wrong morally. Because their holy book says homosexuals are wrong doesn't allow them to impose that on society, they should have no say in the legalisation of gay marriage. They are people and have all the rights as humans to marry who they want, regardless of gender.

For a religion that supposedly teaches acceptance and respect, they are surprisingly oppressive. Politics and religion are separate matters, and should be kept separate. Politics and laws should be in place to protect people and better society, and banning gay marriage, whatever country it is in, does not better society, it simply bows to the demands of a church or religious authority that has held a monopoly on society and politics for centuries.

Interested to hear views on the topic.

The problem is two-fold. Religion, most especially Catholicism, has always been about power and money. So there's that. Meanwhile the followers who truly believe actually believe things like homosexuality are objectively wrong because who would know better than gawd. Therefore, they view it like murder or stealing - that is, in the same bucket as wrongs that we all agree on and therefore do legislate. They see people who disagree as being immoral and in need of legislating against.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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08-03-2017, 12:33 PM
RE: Religion and Politics
Let's all become Scientologists. That solves everything! Wink

I get to decide what my life looks like, not the other way around.
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08-03-2017, 02:00 PM
RE: Religion and Politics
(08-03-2017 12:33 PM)RearViewMirror Wrote:  Let's all become Scientologists. That solves everything! Wink

Not enough planets.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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08-03-2017, 02:43 PM
RE: Religion and Politics
mordant Wrote:If you want to put it in terms marginally friendly to Mormonism, just say that from the time Young took over from Smith until the 1970s, Mormonism was in the grip of an unfortunate heresy, which it has since renounced
When you talk about "unfortunate heresy" I don't know what you are talking about. But I would like to know.
LDS Church was never anti-black rights.
If there are any examples of how LDS Church was trying to take away or was taking away any rights from black people I want to know.

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08-03-2017, 03:20 PM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2017 03:26 PM by Alla.)
RE: Religion and Politics
I am not here to defend or to reject, or to attack personal opinions or any statements of Brigham Young or any Church leader.

I don't even know WHY Brigham Young said what he said. I didn't live in that time when slavery was legal in the USA, when it was an era of great racial division in the USA.
It is totally unfair when a man who lives in the 21st century judges another man from the past by reading just few of his statements.

Is it possible that Brigham Young was a racist? May be, everything is possible but I don't believe this.
I don't believe this because I do KNOW that Brigham Young accepted LDS Doctrine:
" ALL are ALIKE unto God". "Salvation is to ALL men". All people are literally children of God. So Brigham Young embraced that black people and white people, and all other kind of people are His BROTHERS and SISTERS.
I don't believe a racist would embrace this kind of doctrine.

I don't believe Brigham Young was a racist because he said this:

1) about Q. Walker Lewis, a black man who had been ordained to the priesthood: 'we have one of THE BEST Elders, AN AFRICAN".
I don't believe a racist would say anything like this.

and he said this ( in times in the USA history when slavery was legal, and for some unknown reason Brigham Young announced a policy restricting men of black African descent from priesthood ordination)

2) "at some future day, black Church members WOULD "have privilege and MORE"
P.S. Umm...Brigham Young was right. It happened. A prophecy?

P.S. While black people of African descent didn't have priesthood, black people who where not of African descent would have priesthood. Skin color has nothing to do with anything.

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08-03-2017, 03:43 PM
RE: Religion and Politics
Skin color is NOT the curse.
It never was, it never will be.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
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08-03-2017, 04:39 PM
RE: Religion and Politics
(08-03-2017 03:20 PM)Alla Wrote:  I am not here to defend or to reject, or to attack personal opinions or any statements of Brigham Young or any Church leader.

I don't even know WHY Brigham Young said what he said. I didn't live in that time when slavery was legal in the USA, when it was an era of great racial division in the USA.
It is totally unfair when a man who lives in the 21st century judges another man from the past by reading just few of his statements.

Is it possible that Brigham Young was a racist? May be, everything is possible but I don't believe this.
I don't believe this because I do KNOW that Brigham Young accepted LDS Doctrine:
" ALL are ALIKE unto God". "Salvation is to ALL men". All people are literally children of God. So Brigham Young embraced that black people and white people, and all other kind of people are His BROTHERS and SISTERS.
I don't believe a racist would embrace this kind of doctrine.

I don't believe Brigham Young was a racist because he said this:

1) about Q. Walker Lewis, a black man who had been ordained to the priesthood: 'we have one of THE BEST Elders, AN AFRICAN".
I don't believe a racist would say anything like this.

and he said this ( in times in the USA history when slavery was legal, and for some unknown reason Brigham Young announced a policy restricting men of black African descent from priesthood ordination)

2) "at some future day, black Church members WOULD "have privilege and MORE"
P.S. Umm...Brigham Young was right. It happened. A prophecy?

P.S. While black people of African descent didn't have priesthood, black people who where not of African descent would have priesthood. Skin color has nothing to do with anything.

You would think a man that god talks to would get the fact straight no matter what time period they live in don’t you?

Alla, you are completely blind to the facts no matter how many times they are presented to you. Your cognitive dissonance is extreme.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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