Religion and choice
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04-03-2017, 06:07 PM
RE: Religion and choice
ShadowProject Wrote:Do you chat with him on the phone or something?
no

ShadowProject Wrote:Genuinely curious how you know what makes him happy...

I BELIEVE that things that were revealed by Him in the scriptures are true.
I KNOW that when I do what I BELLIEVE is right and it is right it makes me happy.
I KNOW that when I do what I BELIEVE is wrong and it is wrong it brings misery, sometimes even destruction..

ShadowProject Wrote:p.s. do the starving children make him happy?

no

ShadowProject Wrote:One would think he would fix that shit because it's the right thing to do.
Yes, this is why He made sure that there are plenty of adults on the planet Earth who are CAPABLE to fix this problem and be HAPPY while doing great, kind work and be HAPPY from fixing the problem.
Why would God take this opportunity from you? He wants you to do great work and to be happy and TO LEARN how to make others happy.

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04-03-2017, 06:11 PM
RE: Religion and choice
So giving a 5 year old an inoperable brain tumor and letting her slowly die while the parents sit and helplessly watch is because HE wants to give an adult an opportunity?

"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu."

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04-03-2017, 06:20 PM
RE: Religion and choice
ShadowProject Wrote:So giving a 5 year old an inoperable brain tumor and letting her slowly die while the parents sit and helplessly watch is because HE wants to give an adult an opportunity
He doesn't give a 5 year old an inoperable brain tumor. He doesn't create mortal imperfect men.

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04-03-2017, 06:37 PM
RE: Religion and choice
wait...what???

"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu."

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04-03-2017, 06:47 PM
RE: Religion and choice
we live in the world where bad things happen.

this is the way this world is.

worlds like ours exist from eternity to eternity.

I don't claim it is true, I just believe it is true.

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05-03-2017, 03:42 AM
RE: Religion and choice
If he could make this world better but refuses to, I personally hold him accountable for that. Especially if he could stop unnecessary suffering, which I imagine he could do quite easily from what you say. I guess he has a different goal or value system to me.

Making laws regarding himself and punishing himself means they are more akin to man-made laws for punishing crimes than laws of nature.

You seem to have more of a "caretaker" view of God, a guy who showed up while everything was already there. I find many theists flip-flop between a creator and a caretaker, depending on the argument. I think you're the first to actually state the caretaker role and stick to it.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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05-03-2017, 03:52 AM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2017 07:11 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Religion and choice
(05-03-2017 03:42 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  If he could make this world better but refuses to, I personally hold him accountable for that. Especially if he could stop unnecessary suffering, which I imagine he could do quite easily from what you say. I guess he has a different goal or value system to me.

Making laws regarding himself and punishing himself means they are more akin to man-made laws for punishing crimes than laws of nature.

You seem to have more of a "caretaker" view of God, a guy who showed up while everything was already there. I find many theists flip-flop between a creator and a caretaker, depending on the argument. I think you're the first to actually state the caretaker role and stick to it.

She's nominally a Mormon, where sufficiently devout followers can ascend to godhood and themselves start their own universes. Our reality is the just the cosmic ant-farm for one of these callously voyeuristic invisible space wizards. They have a cosmology about as convoluted as the Forgotten Realms.

Seriously, I don't have a better comparison to Mormonism than a D&D campaign setting imagined in the 70's.

[Image: latest?cb=20130528075837]

^ The many connected Planes of Existence that make up the cosmology of the Forgotten Realms, an entirely fictitious creation. ^

[Image: kolob1.gif]

^ Mormon cosmology, also an entirely fictitious creation. ^



To be fair, the Forgotten Realms books are a way better read. Drinking Beverage

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05-03-2017, 08:14 AM
Religion and choice
(03-03-2017 10:05 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(03-03-2017 09:08 AM)Alla Wrote:  According to LDS doctrine, and to the Bible, we are to thank God for everything, not only for good.
I am grateful that I have hard times in my life. I am grateful that there is evil in my life.
If there was no evil I wouldn't be able to learn how to overcome evil

They've fully got you there, then. God can do absolutely anything he likes, and you will thank him!

I wonder how far this would stretch? How awful would your life have to be before you called bullshit on this?

This is related to my previous point. It's not really a matter of how materially awful ones life is, but about ones perspective on it.

My mother has had a very shitty life, but she's one of the truly happiest people I know. And many people have less materially shitty lives, and they're the most miserable people you'd meet.

So if you take God out the question, it's sort of like asking how shitty does your life have to be, for you to be unhappy, miserable and want to commit suicide?

Or take a person who might say no matter what shit life throws at them, the fact that they've loved and been loved, cover over a multitude of pain and inflection, loss and tragedy. I don't see such a perspective as one to put to down, but one to actually admire.




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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05-03-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: Religion and choice
Sure, trying your best to be positive and cope with life is certainly to be admired. I'm not putting this down at all. If you take God out, we're dealing with real life. I'm dealing with a theist's point of view here, which is not real (as far as I'm concerned).

What I don't understand is praising the being that you believe is flinging all this shit at you in the first place. Or in Alla's case, she's happy with it not preventing the shit. It's like a father figure allowing someone to beat you up, when they could simply step in and stop the bullies. The father says, "It's for your own good". Whatever "good" is supposed to come out of this, I assume God could just give you that for free without you having to be beaten up. If not, he's not very powerful really. The means to an end idea works with humans sometimes, because humans are limited in power and resources. It doesn't work when all possibilities are available.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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05-03-2017, 11:05 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(05-03-2017 08:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's not really a matter of how materially awful ones life is, but about ones perspective on it.

My mother has had a very shitty life, but she's one of the truly happiest people I know. And many people have less materially shitty lives, and they're the most miserable people you'd meet.
So far, so good. Unhappiness (or, really, discontentment) is simply the impedance mismatch between what you expect from life and what you get from life. Happiness (or, really, contentment) is reducing that mismatch by either improving your situation or lowering your expectations (or both).

We often cite Denmark as "the happiest country on earth" but more astute observers have suggested they are really the most content. They are boring people with modest expectations and minimalist ambitions that are more easily fulfilled.

Happiness / unhappiness is just a surge of emotion in those moments when your expectations are greatly exceeded / fallen short of. By definition, these surges are transitory, and by definition, more frequent if your expectations aren't overwrought.
(05-03-2017 08:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So if you take God out the question, it's sort of like asking how shitty does your life have to be, for you to be unhappy, miserable and want to commit suicide?
God IS, by DEFINITION, out of the equation. It is folks like you who keep inserting god as a necessary entity, when in fact he's only a complicating entity who adds no explanatory or predictive power to your perception of life.

Everyone does their own risk / reward, effort / outcome analysis and decides the value of their life experience. Putting layers of flawed abstractions atop that can at most distract or deflect from the actual analysis, but your innermost self knows at some level where the results fall for you, regardless of where they are "supposed to" fall. It seems to me that being burdened with a minimum of fantastical explanations / rationalizations allows you to make the best objective decisions for yourself.
(05-03-2017 08:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Or take a person who might say no matter what shit life throws at them, the fact that they've loved and been loved, cover over a multitude of pain and inflection, loss and tragedy. I don't see such a perspective as one to put to down, but one to actually admire.
There is nothing there to put down or disrespect, although I would fall short of admiring it as inherently optimal. Life invariably requires more rationalizing than most of us would prefer, and whatever works to create meaning and purpose without harming others is fine for any given individual. That doesn't make it the best of all possible worlds for that person, even if it makes their world better than it might be without those mental gymnastics.

Personally I see both great boons / opportunities and great costs / risks in loving and being loved. Given that we know the human mind is wired by natural selection to pay way too much attention for purposes of modern living, to risks and threats, it makes sense for me to choose to focus more on the positives of my special relationships, to compensate for that. But that doesn't change that a cold, hard analysis with 20/20 hindsight won't eventually convince me that I might as well not have bothered, if I had truly known in advance what the outcomes would have been. Which, of course, I could not have known in advance.

I am not afraid of such final analyses, however, as I am interested in reality-based assessments. Besides, given this is the only life I actually have, all realizations are finite. If I don't like the final outcomes, I won't have to ruminate on it forever. To the extent I like them, I can cherish them as the fleeting and impermanent and therefore valuable thing that they are. I find this sufficient. Indeed, it is within the humility of my true mortal scope as a human.
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