Religion and choice
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06-03-2017, 02:19 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(06-03-2017 02:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Ah, I see. So polytheism isn't the problem then? The problem is not picking a favorite Alpha-Male, and elevating them above all others? Consider

Yes, you got it.
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06-03-2017, 02:45 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(06-03-2017 02:14 AM)fschmidt Wrote:  the terminal cultural illnesses of liberalism and feminism.

If we have to go, it's not a bad way to go. Christ Rolleyes Conservatives are really scraping the bottom of the barrel these days.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-03-2017, 02:51 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(06-03-2017 02:19 AM)fschmidt Wrote:  
(06-03-2017 02:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Ah, I see. So polytheism isn't the problem then? The problem is not picking a favorite Alpha-Male, and elevating them above all others? Consider

Yes, you got it.

So how much better would we all be if the Greeks and spurned all others in favor of raising Ares to prominence, much like the ancient Hebrew did with Yahweh Sabaoth? Yes

It even crops up in our own culture, the burning for an Alpha-Male to rise up and cast down all others before him. Is it any reason that Kratos was so popular? Consider

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06-03-2017, 07:58 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(05-03-2017 10:39 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  What I don't understand is praising the being that you believe is flinging all this shit at you in the first place. Or in Alla's case, she's happy with it not preventing the shit. It's like a father figure allowing someone to beat you up, when they could simply step in and stop the bullies.


Couple of things here, your perceptions is improperly placed. A theists praising God is not similar to me praising you for a good performance, but more akin to gratitude for life. I find life beautiful, and that beauty includes it's tragedy and suffering, and there's a gratitude, a reverence I have towards it as result of this. And that's what theist praise, gratitude towards God is. In pretty much any scenario such as this, if one takes God out the picture, the scenario could be quite easily replaced by this notion.

Quote:The father says, "It's for your own good". Whatever "good" is supposed to come out of this, I assume God could just give you that for free without you having to be beaten up. If not, he's not very powerful really. The means to an end idea works with humans sometimes, because humans are limited in power and resources. It doesn't work when all possibilities are available.

That's because most theists don't see God as something akin to a superhero, rescuing us from every calamity, waiting for the bat symbol to go up. Not to mention the fact that questions why a God does intervene in such away, makes little sense, when the question should be why didn't God create a world in which such intervention is not necessary, in which tragedy, pain, suffering and death did not exist, and his creatures where much different than us, incapable of transgressions, perhaps a set of robots, rather than agents with creative and destructive capacities like the world itself.


This is the world we live in, it's not entirely bad one, and depending on the perch your sitting on, it may just as well be a profoundly beautiful one, with depth and wonder, suffering and love, a world where the best and the worst are intwined.

Perhaps if you see your own life as shitty, worthless and miserable, then it might be easier to criticize God in such away, it's less possible when you don't.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-03-2017, 08:04 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(05-03-2017 11:05 AM)mordant Wrote:  There is nothing there to put down or disrespect, although I would fall short of admiring it as inherently optimal. Life invariably requires more rationalizing than most of us would prefer, and whatever works to create meaning and purpose without harming others is fine for any given individual. That doesn't make it the best of all possible worlds for that person, even if it makes their world better than it might be without those mental gymnastics.

Personally I see both great boons / opportunities and great costs / risks in loving and being loved. Given that we know the human mind is wired by natural selection to pay way too much attention for purposes of modern living, to risks and threats, it makes sense for me to choose to focus more on the positives of my special relationships, to compensate for that. But that doesn't change that a cold, hard analysis with 20/20 hindsight won't eventually convince me that I might as well not have bothered, if I had truly known in advance what the outcomes would have been. Which, of course, I could not have known in advance.

I am not afraid of such final analyses, however, as I am interested in reality-based assessments. Besides, given this is the only life I actually have, all realizations are finite. If I don't like the final outcomes, I won't have to ruminate on it forever. To the extent I like them, I can cherish them as the fleeting and impermanent and therefore valuable thing that they are. I find this sufficient. Indeed, it is within the humility of my true mortal scope as a human.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here. But as far as individual life is concerned, what it requires in terms of living a content, and happy life, is not more rationalizing, as it is meaningful and good relationships. Good relationship with one's friends, one's parents, siblings, kids, wife... can save a man from life long resentments. If you're old and find your life is miserable, it's likely not the result of a failure to rationalize properly, but a long series of failed relationships. A failed series of failing to love and be loved.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-03-2017, 08:56 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(06-03-2017 07:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  This is the world we live in, it's not entirely bad one, and depending on the perch your sitting on, it may just as well be a profoundly beautiful one, with depth and wonder, suffering and love, a world where the best and the worst are intwined.
No God requirement for that.

Quote:Perhaps if you see your own life as shitty, worthless and miserable, then it might be easier to criticize God in such away, it's less possible when you don't.
So atheism is logical for poor people? Rolleyes

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-03-2017, 01:40 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2017 01:46 PM by Alla.)
RE: Religion and choice
Robvalue Wrote:I also try my best to do the right thing. I help people, and it feels good to do so. This is nothing to do with any religion, it's an evolutionary trait.
Of course. You are not the only one who tries the best to do what you believe is right.
Yes, you don't need a religion to do this. Yes, you don't need God to do this. Yes, you don't need Christ to do this.
You are born that way.
Every person is born with what we(LDS) call "light of Christ". What is "light of Christ"? It is ability to know right from wrong. Every one of us has own ideas of what right is and what wrong is. When we do what we believe is right we can say that our conscience is clean. When we intentionally do what we believe is wrong we feel guilty, our conscience is not clean.
There were, there are and there will be millions of people who never believed in Christ, who didn't know anything about Christ. God never revealed Himself to them.

We can live without any religion all our lives but we still have "light of Christ" and we can GOVERN OURSELVES - we can live according to our conscience.
We still can progress without any religion. We still can progress without God.
This is very, very important - to have progress.
the progress I am talking about is this: bad person can become good person, good person can become a better person, and better, and better, and better person and ...

Robvalue Wrote:I was talking about the worship aspect only.
Yes. According to LDS Doctrine "to worship God" means "to love God". But "to love" according to LDS Doctrine is "to serve and to sacrifice"
If I say that I love somebody(including God) I don't mean just feelings in my "heart" and lip service. Love is action, faith is action.
I can not say that I love someone and then don't do any service/anything good to this person. I can not say that I love and not to be willing to sacrifice something for this person ( if sacrifice is necessary).
To worship God for every LDS is to serve God. What does it mean "to serve God"? To serve God means to serve God's children
So, when we serve our fellowmen we only serve our God.

When atheist Rob loves and serves people(a family member, a friend, his neighbors, a stranger), Rob serves His God in whom he doesn't believe. Rob serves God he doesn't know.

You may ask this logical question: "If Rob doesn't need religion or God to do the best to choose the right, and if Rob doesn't need religion and any knowledge about God to serve this God then why does Alla need a religion and God?"
Would it be your question?

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06-03-2017, 01:52 PM
RE: Religion and choice
(06-03-2017 08:56 AM)morondog Wrote:  So atheism is logical for poor people? Rolleyes

Sure. Don't you remember that Marx quote about atheism being opium of the poor masses?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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07-03-2017, 12:46 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2017 01:30 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Religion and choice
Alla: Indeed, that would be a good question, yes Smile

You can call the desire to do good the "light of Christ" if you like, but that doesn't automatically make it anything to do with Jesus, if he ever existed. We have simple, solid scientific explanations that don't require any godlike influences.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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07-03-2017, 03:00 PM
RE: Religion and choice
Robvalue Wrote:You can call the desire to do good the "light of Christ" if you like, but that doesn't automatically make it anything to do with Jesus, if he ever existed.
We have simple, solid scientific explanations that don't require any godlike influences.
Sure, we are not going to argue about this because it would be a waste of time.
BTW, can you share with me scientific explanation? May be there is a link? or in your own words. You are very good at explaining things. You have talent.

So, why does Alla need her God and her religion? I will give relatively short answer:

1) I need God because I believe that if I ask Him He will help me with making right choices when I don't have enough knowledge and/or experience.
I believe God does guide me.
If I have to choose between good and better, I prefer to chose better.
It is better to have help of God when it is needed then to be on my own.

2) I have an opportunity to participate in God's great and marvelous work. It is wonderful to be a part of something great, good. It enriches my life and life those whom I serve.

3)I want to have THE BEST rewards because I want to have FULLNESS OF JOY.
if I have to choose between good, better and the best, I always want to choose THE BEST.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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