Religion and choice
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12-03-2017, 09:02 PM
RE: Religion and choice
(02-03-2017 06:29 AM)Vera Wrote:  Those are all good, valid and logical points, Robvalue... which is exactly why they won't make a dent in a religious person's conviction. Don't know if you were ever religious, but I was and I still describe it "some switch was flipped in my brain"... and when that happens, it's extremely hard to look at it reasonably, you just *know* it in your heart that it *is* true. And like I think I mentioned somewhere else, nowadays religion is nothing more than a security blanket and of course you are going to pretend that it's fluffy and warm, and wonderful. In other words - of course god is the bestest ever and everything he does is great. Because the alternative is unthinkable. Also, society has evolved and so has its idea of god, which is actually good (well, as good as it anything regarding religion can be)

One of the things that really didn't sit right with me when I was religious, was if there's only one true religion, what about the people who weren't lucky enough to have been born in it? (Even at my most deluded, I was aware that I was only a Xtian, because of where I was born and had I been born some place else, I might've been a Muslim, a Hindu, or what have you). Yeah, I tried telling myself I was just lucky but... how selfish and improbable and UNFAIR is this? (I then tried telling myself that it's basically different versions of the same religion/god. Didn't really work)

And (with all due respect to Kingschosen, whom I genuinely like), the most abhorrent and vile, and mind-numbingly arrogant of them all is Calvinism. At least other denominations claim that you just need to be a good person to go to Heaven, etc. But to believe that pretty much everyone else is going to suffer for eternity (or not be resurrected, am fuzzy on the details) but YOUR precious self was chosen for eternal salvation? And not just you, mind you, but by some magical coincidence, your spouse and children as well? And to be okay with it and willing to worship such a random, inexplicable monster? How does the mind even handle such a degree of arrogance and cognitive dissonance?

(I'm so with you on the worship part. Hell, I hate even the word. I hate it in my crappy romance novels. Who, on earth, would want to be worshipped? It's such a demeaning, repulsive concept, no matter which side of it you are on)

While from all my observations I would generally agree with you on your points. My heart has never been the organ that makes my decisions, determines the "truth" of things. My emotions and hormones are not the main source I use to draw conclusions or make decisions either. Perhaps this is why I was never brainwashed as a kid. Despite growing up with 2 parents who graduated seminary and tried to beat religion into me (both literally and figuratively).

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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12-03-2017, 10:44 PM
RE: Religion and choice
I think this would be good to input. Read the bible it will answer all your questions. And go look up for yourself don't be too good or too evil or you dir either way bible verse in eclesiastes.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%204
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12-03-2017, 10:55 PM
RE: Religion and choice
(12-03-2017 10:44 PM)socialistview Wrote:  I think this would be good to input. Read the bible it will answer all your questions. And go look up for yourself don't be too good or too evil or you dir either way bible verse in eclesiastes.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%204

Dude, I've already read the Bible. That's why I'm an atheist. Maybe you should actually try reading the whole damn thing?

Or maybe do something more enjoyable, like getting your dick caught in the closing door of a luxury sedan? Drinking Beverage

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12-03-2017, 10:59 PM
RE: Religion and choice
So evolutionkills why did you become an athiest.
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12-03-2017, 11:10 PM
RE: Religion and choice
(12-03-2017 10:59 PM)socialistview Wrote:  So evolutionkills why did you become an athiest.

Because no super-natural theistic claim has ever met it's burden of proof.

Because I know far more about religions and their histories than the vast majority of self-identified 'believers' do.

Because I value evidence over emotion.

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13-03-2017, 12:53 AM
RE: Religion and choice
You seem to think none of us have read the bible socialist. That's not the problem. The problem is that a lot of us have read it. It's a steaming pile of shit. Fantasy nonsense and immoral carnage. The only reason anyone thinks it's anything more than a story is because of oral myths surrounding it, and indoctrination. If you picked up this book knowing nothing about it, are you seriously saying you'd just believe it? If so, there's no reason not to believe every other religious book too, and indeed every fictional story ever written.

(12-03-2017 08:33 PM)Kernel Sohcahtoa Wrote:  
(02-03-2017 05:27 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  (1)If you truly believe a being out there somewhere is responsible for all this, and everything is happening according to its plan, then fine. Obviously I think it's an unecessary assumption and has no evidence to back it, but I don't care what you believe. But what I don't get is why you want to go and worship that creature.



(2)Of course, I know why, on the whole. Indoctrination. Fear. Social pressure. But it seems to me that people have rarely considered that they have a choice. Even if they think the Bible is "true", they don't have to be a Christian. If they think the Quran is "true", they don't have to be a Muslim. But instead, they almost all do, and spend the whole time making up excuses for why God is so incompetent and sadistic, just as with Stockholm Syndrome. Almost all apologetics, when not trying to prove religious texts to be true, sounds like a battered spouse to me: excusing the actions of their violent, crazy partner.

Regarding 1, I'm also uncertain about why worship would be necessary. If there is a life-form (lets call it L) out there who did create humanity, then would it be more rewarding for L to be worshiped by its creations, or would it be more rewarding for L's creations to value themselves and what they have to offer by growing in their own way and becoming independent, unique, and even more developed life-forms than L?

Regarding 2, when apologists defend their religious books, do they acknowledge that they were written by people and that people are prone to making errors? How do they know that the human prophets, who claimed to have communicated with their god, didn't make a mistake somewhere? How do apologists know that the foundations of their faith wasn't based on some form of confirmation bias? Also, if apologists claim to have spoken with their God, then do these experiences occur before they were socialized into religious belief systems or during and/or after their religious upbringing/socialization?

Absolutely, I have no idea why a creator would want worship. It's absurd. It just shows how "God" is really a human in people's minds, hungry for acceptance.

Apologists never fail to amaze me with the broken nature of virtually everything they say. And they seem totally immune to recognizing the fallacious nature of their reasoning, even when I point it out endlessly.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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13-03-2017, 06:28 AM
RE: Religion and choice
What's the burden of proof? And everybody in the bible had to live by faith without the outcome looking good. And I see the bible as god showing the right way to live to people who can't understand how.
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13-03-2017, 07:54 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2017 08:34 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Religion and choice
(13-03-2017 06:28 AM)socialistview Wrote:  What's the burden of proof?

When someone makes a claim, the burden is on them to substantiate that claim. This ranges from very simple benefit of the doubt (I own a dog) to extraordinary claims (I can defy the laws of nature) that require a substantial amount of evidence to back them up or else be dismissed as bullshit. Claims require evidence, and extraordinary claims (i.e. anything supernatural) require extraordinary evidence.

Every claim in the Bible is either not evidently true (unable to be falsified or substantiated), evidently not true (patently false, all evidence points to the contrary), or trivially true (an entirely inconsequential statement, such as 'the sky is blue').


(13-03-2017 06:28 AM)socialistview Wrote:  And everybody in the bible had to live by faith without the outcome looking good.

We can do better than that. Evidently, you can not. How does it feel to be intellectually and ethically on par with bronze age got fuckers? Consider


(13-03-2017 06:28 AM)socialistview Wrote:  And I see the bible as god showing the right way to live to people who can't understand how.

If the answer to your problem is ever 'genocide', you've done fucked up boy. How does it feel to be intellectually and ethically on par with bronze age got fuckers? Dodgy

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13-03-2017, 08:49 AM
RE: Religion and choice
The angel of god was not for or against the conquest of canaan. But reading from different passages the people had time to repent but did not I don't really know if they heard about egypt or whatever but it said their sin filled up so mabe they were evil like giving bribes and having injustice in the city I don't know they were sinfull as god judges all and is the god of all wiped them out. That's the only one I can see unjust.
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13-03-2017, 08:57 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(13-03-2017 08:49 AM)socialistview Wrote:  The angel of god was not for or against the conquest of canaan. But reading from different passages the people had time to repent but did not I don't really know if they heard about egypt or whatever but it said their sin filled up so mabe they were evil like giving bribes and having injustice in the city I don't know they were sinfull as god judges all and is the god of all wiped them out. That's the only one I can see unjust.

That's a non-sequitur, you like to paraphrase sections of the bible and you invariably get parts of it wrong when you do this. Just stop.

The bible isn't evidence, period. Every time you mangle what the bible says, it neither backs whatever point you are trying to make or gives you any credibility.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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