Religion and choice
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02-03-2017, 10:40 AM
RE: Religion and choice
I would say you're playing word games. You've already changed one word into another, and it's not being used in the same way as when we "serve" other humans. I don't become subservient to loved ones I "serve".

It's not a relationship in which you're equals, in any sense, with God. What on earth would he need help with, anyway?

I still have no idea what you're talking about with the languages. You can "learn" about religion without having to join one, or to worship the guy in charge of it. I understand you're trying to make analogies, but I think they're too far removed to be useful.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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02-03-2017, 10:45 AM
RE: Religion and choice
kim Wrote:But what if such work might also do harm - if not physical then at least, psychological? Consider Or possibly physical harm, in the long run ...?
Then you will know that you were wrong. If it is not too late you have to stop this work.
kim Wrote:Suppose you worked and studied, spent money to take classes for 40 years to learn to speak 20 different languages. Suppose your study and these classes provided you with certificates to teach others.
But you one day find still aren't really, completely fluent in all these languages. It is very possible you wouldn't even know this unless and until, someone came along you couldn't understand, even though you had studied their language.
Then I would know for sure that I believed something that was not true. I would know that what I did for 40 years was waste of time and money.
kim Wrote:Though your integrity as a teacher of this language (and possibly others) is diminished, would you continue to teach?
No, not me.

kim Wrote:Have you taught your students to incorrectly communicate?
Yes.

kim Wrote:Incorrect communication can indeed, cause harm and knowing this, would you continue to teach?
No, I would never do this unless I am a con woman.

English is my second language.
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02-03-2017, 10:49 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(02-03-2017 10:40 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  ----
--- You can "learn" about religion without having to join one, or to worship the guy in charge of it. ---

^^^^This^^^^ is sustainance. Angel

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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02-03-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: Religion and choice
Robvalue Wrote:I still have no idea what you're talking about with the languages.
I am talking about this:
to believe only (faith ALONE) in God without worshipping Him has no purpose.
OK, I believe in God. So what? It has the same RESULTS if I didn't believe in God.

Just to believe that I can speak 20 languages and not to study them has no purpose. It would have the same RESULTS if I didn't believe that I can speak 20 languages.

The RESULTS of faith alone(belief alone) = ZERO

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02-03-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(02-03-2017 10:40 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I would say you're playing word games. You've already changed one word into another, and it's not being used in the same way as when we "serve" other humans. I don't become subservient to loved ones I "serve".
define "worship", please

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02-03-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(02-03-2017 05:27 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  If you truly believe a being out there somewhere is responsible for all this, and everything is happening according to its plan, then fine. Obviously I think it's an unecessary assumption and has no evidence to back it, but I don't care what you believe. But what I don't get is why you want to go and worship that creature.

I think there are a few reasons. It starts off with many believers aren't even aware of all the atrocities their god is supposedly responsible for. The religions cherry-pick the good stuff and that's all the parishioners are told. Many don't learn about their religions beyond what their local clergy tell them. For the ones that do learn about the atrocities, they dismiss them with the old "god's infinite wisdom is so much greater than that of any human and we cannot possibly understand why he does some things, but there ARE good reasons". They might also add "you're taking it out of context" because they, themselves don't know the context and therefore don't know that the context makes no difference. Plus, there are the 10 commandments for the religions where those are relevant and god commands that people worship him in more than one commandment.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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02-03-2017, 11:04 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(02-03-2017 10:18 AM)RearViewMirror Wrote:  
(02-03-2017 07:14 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  As humans, we like to talk.
We gather. We listen. We add our two cents.
It's in our nature.

I agree with this.

Much the same reason we joined an Atheist forum (not saying we worship anything by any means). But people that are religious and belong to a certain religious group are going to want to be around other like minded individuals. Much the same reason I joined this forum. I have a great desire to learn, to bounce ideas off each other, and honestly to be around others that are very similar to me. This, of course, doesn't mean I have to agree with everything that is posted on here nor do you have to agree with me. But that's one of the things that makes a place like this special in my opinion. I tend to think we all share "similar" views and therefore we congregate each day to see what each other is thinking about a particular subject. From the mundane to the serious.

Absolutely, I agree.

But people could all get together and discuss their beliefs about "God" or whatever, without having to also worship it. Just like I could talk to other people who think LOTR is real without having to join a Sauron cult.

I guess the social groups have just become about worship, so it's kind of not optional in that regard.

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02-03-2017, 11:09 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(02-03-2017 11:01 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-03-2017 10:40 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I would say you're playing word games. You've already changed one word into another, and it's not being used in the same way as when we "serve" other humans. I don't become subservient to loved ones I "serve".
define "worship", please

I got this:

"The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity."

Sure, you can play with the words in that sentence. But I've seen and heard how people worship, and it's about placing themselves firmly beneath God and telling it how wonderful it is. Taking what it says as truth, and acting upon its wishes without question. If you don't do that, if your kind of worship doesn't put you in a subservient position, then that is great! I may well find your relationship more healthy. I'd personally be very happy to have a relationship with God, if it could be bothered. Just not one in which I place myself below it.

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02-03-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(02-03-2017 10:58 AM)Alla Wrote:  
Robvalue Wrote:I still have no idea what you're talking about with the languages.
I am talking about this:
to believe only (faith ALONE) in God without worshipping Him has no purpose.
OK, I believe in God. So what? It has the same RESULTS if I didn't believe in God.

Just to believe that I can speak 20 languages and not to study them has no purpose. It would have the same RESULTS if I didn't believe that I can speak 20 languages.

The RESULTS of faith alone(belief alone) = ZERO

Right...

I agree with the conclusion. But it doesn't answer my question about why you'd worship something. Worship isn't the same as learning. Can you not answer the question directly?

You seem to be saying you want to profit somehow from your belief.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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02-03-2017, 11:20 AM
RE: Religion and choice
To say more about worship...

I see it as giving up your own agency. You're submitting to the will of another, and doing its bidding. It's doing the thinking for you. You've dehumanized yourself.

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