Religion and choice
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03-03-2017, 07:46 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(02-03-2017 02:32 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-03-2017 05:27 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Of course, I know why, on the whole. Indoctrination. Fear. Social pressure. But it seems to me that people have rarely considered that they have a choice. Even if they think the Bible is "true", they don't have to be a Christian. If they think the Quran is "true", they don't have to be a Muslim. But instead, they almost all do, and spend the whole time making up excuses for why God is so incompetent and sadistic, just as with Stockholm Syndrome. Almost all apologetics, when not trying to prove religious texts to be true, sounds like a battered spouse to me: excusing the actions of their violent, crazy partner.

How can they be battered spouses if the being doing the battering doesn't exist? I don't think I understand the reasoning behind a common argument made here, regarding Stockholm syndrome.

Do you find your own life cruel, and miserable?

Let you say your find you life as pretty happy, content, optimistic, hopeful, good. And let say you run across a theist whose life is also pretty happy, content, optimistic and hopeful, how is he akin to a battered wife just by believing in God, or a victim of stockholm syndrome?

There are things called similes, usually denoted by the use of the words "like" or "as" in expressing similar ideas.
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03-03-2017, 08:02 AM
RE: Religion and choice
Right... this objection comes up a lot.

The whole point is that I'm conceding, for the sake of argument, that what the theist believes is real. I'm then analyzing their thoughts within that framework. If they think God is real, and they think God decided that suffering was a good thing to have, then they're siding with an abuser. For sure the abuser doesn't exist, but the fact that they think it does shows what their values are.

My life sucks, as it happens. If I believed in this ultra-God, then I'd hold it responsible for the ways it sucks that are beyond my control. So I wouldn't be thanking it, I'd be cursing it. If my suffering is a "means to an end", then an ultra God could have achieved the same outcome without me having to suffer. So it chose the suffering route, making it an abuser. If God has external rules which limit his options, then he's not the ultra deity that is normally presented. I'd assess a limited power God differently.

The theist who sides with the abuser is a battered spouse apologist for life in general. God is essentially going around fucking with everyone, making them be in pain and giving them diseases (since he planned everything to be this way, and could have chosen for things to not be this way). They are saying this is an okay way for God to behave. I don't agree.

Of course, theists often jump through all sorts of hoops to excuse God from any responsibility. I'll cover the most common objection: free will. He doesn't want robots! Well, sure. But that's a false dichotomy. It's possible to have lots of choice, but to have it so that all the choices don't involve anyone suffering. You don't have to also have the options which do involve suffering. So that argument is bullshit. No one would even know what suffering was, or desire it, because we'd be made that way.

Argument 2: without suffering, you don't enjoy/appreciate the times you're not suffering as much. That is just an arbitrary rule God decided. Things needn't be that way. We could be designed so we always appreciate being happy, and never get bored with it. Just as much as if we'd had the "bonus" of having horrible shit happen to us first.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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03-03-2017, 08:45 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(03-03-2017 08:02 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Of course, theists often jump through all sorts of hoops to excuse God from any responsibility.

An all-powerful God is responsible for natural evils like earthquakes, tsunamis, diseases, birth defects, natural abortions, tornados, hurricanes and so on. Without the "fall of man" dogma to explain natural evils, to shift the blame to humanity, you end up with an even less-likely God concept. And in either case, the God in question is not worthy of worship.
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03-03-2017, 09:07 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(03-03-2017 08:45 AM)Jay Vogelsong Wrote:  
(03-03-2017 08:02 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Of course, theists often jump through all sorts of hoops to excuse God from any responsibility.

An all-powerful God is responsible for natural evils like earthquakes, tsunamis, diseases, birth defects, natural abortions, tornados, hurricanes and so on. Without the "fall of man" dogma to explain natural evils, to shift the blame to humanity, you end up with an even less-likely God concept. And in either case, the God in question is not worthy of worship.

I always thought that was a pretty weak out. Plus a bit of victim blaming too. "Oh, you got hurt by the recent earthquake. Well you see all-wise God did that to you. He HAD to, because you're so evil." Dodgy

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-03-2017, 09:08 AM
RE: Religion and choice
According to LDS doctrine, and to the Bible, we are to thank God for everything, not only for good.
I am grateful that I have hard times in my life. I am grateful that there is evil in my life.
If there was no evil I wouldn't be able to learn how to overcome evil

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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03-03-2017, 09:31 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(03-03-2017 09:08 AM)Alla Wrote:  According to LDS doctrine, and to the Bible, we are to thank God for everything, not only for good.
I am grateful that I have hard times in my life. I am grateful that there is evil in my life.
If there was no evil I wouldn't be able to learn how to overcome evil

But there are no Shart-Goblins on this world Alla? How un-thoughtful of God. Now you will never know how to overcome a Shart-Goblin.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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03-03-2017, 09:48 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(03-03-2017 09:08 AM)Alla Wrote:  According to LDS doctrine, and to the Bible, we are to thank God for everything, not only for good.
I am grateful that I have hard times in my life. I am grateful that there is evil in my life.
If there was no evil I wouldn't be able to learn how to overcome evil

If there was no evil then you would have nothing to overcome so there would be no need to learn how to do so.

I do believe hardships teach us things. I'm glad working is a requirement for me to have enough money to live on because, if I was so rich that I could buy whatever I wanted, I wouldn't have nearly the same appreciation for anything. But I don't see any good coming from dealing with evil. There is no need to make "good" seem "better". I don't see any good coming from extreme hardships either - like people who lose everything (even loved ones) in a natural disaster or kids growing up (or dying) with cancer. There is no justifiable reason that an all powerful god shouldn't rid the world of these things.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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03-03-2017, 10:05 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(03-03-2017 09:08 AM)Alla Wrote:  According to LDS doctrine, and to the Bible, we are to thank God for everything, not only for good.
I am grateful that I have hard times in my life. I am grateful that there is evil in my life.
If there was no evil I wouldn't be able to learn how to overcome evil

They've fully got you there, then. God can do absolutely anything he likes, and you will thank him!

I wonder how far this would stretch? How awful would your life have to be before you called bullshit on this?

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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03-03-2017, 10:06 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(03-03-2017 09:48 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(03-03-2017 09:08 AM)Alla Wrote:  According to LDS doctrine, and to the Bible, we are to thank God for everything, not only for good.
I am grateful that I have hard times in my life. I am grateful that there is evil in my life.
If there was no evil I wouldn't be able to learn how to overcome evil

If there was no evil then you would have nothing to overcome so there would be no need to learn how to do so.

I do believe hardships teach us things. I'm glad working is a requirement for me to have enough money to live on because, if I was so rich that I could buy whatever I wanted, I wouldn't have nearly the same appreciation for anything. But I don't see any good coming from dealing with evil. There is no need to make "good" seem "better". I don't see any good coming from extreme hardships either - like people who lose everything (even loved ones) in a natural disaster or kids growing up (or dying) with cancer. There is no justifiable reason that an all powerful god shouldn't rid the world of these things.

They do teach us things, yeah. But those are things that are useful within the context of a fucked up world with us making the best of it. We wouldn't need to learn any of those things if the environment was properly sorted out in the first place.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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03-03-2017, 10:11 AM
RE: Religion and choice
(03-03-2017 10:05 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(03-03-2017 09:08 AM)Alla Wrote:  According to LDS doctrine, and to the Bible, we are to thank God for everything, not only for good.
I am grateful that I have hard times in my life. I am grateful that there is evil in my life.
If there was no evil I wouldn't be able to learn how to overcome evil

They've fully got you there, then. God can do absolutely anything he likes, and you will thank him!

I wonder how far this would stretch? How awful would your life have to be before you called bullshit on this?

I call bullshit on this now. It's easy to write such shit as there is no way to check this.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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