Religion causing poverty? Need help here
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29-01-2012, 02:43 PM
Religion causing poverty? Need help here
Oh man, I have gotten myself into quarrels online lately. I need to calm down.

This time it's about different religions banning methods of contraception and refusing females control over their own bodies resulting in lots of children = poverty.

Of course, that was stupid of me, since I cannot back it up by references. My opponent claims that religion doesn't cause poverty. Is there anyone here that can help me find something to back my claim?

.... I seriously need to get offline... or solely get into this whole "reposting kittens and rainbows"-thingy.

"Never underestimate how narrow-minded, petty and stupid people can be". Mark Fulton, forum member
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29-01-2012, 02:55 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
(29-01-2012 02:43 PM)Cubic Bubbles Wrote:  Oh man, I have gotten myself into quarrels online lately. I need to calm down.

This time it's about different religions banning methods of contraception and refusing females control over their own bodies resulting in lots of children = poverty.

Of course, that was stupid of me, since I cannot back it up by references. My opponent claims that religion doesn't cause poverty. Is there anyone here that can help me find something to back my claim?

.... I seriously need to get offline... or solely get into this whole "reposting kittens and rainbows"-thingy.

You already have the answer. Research poverty vs. number of children. Those facts are easy to find. Then connect number of children to religious rules.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-01-2012, 03:34 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
IMO
I'm afraid you stepped on a slippery slope fallacy

I hope I'm wrong

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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29-01-2012, 03:56 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
There's a load of evidence in the history of the catholic church alone - probably the easiest to research.
Compare the standard of living of countries ( within a single continent, so as not to be sidetracked by irrelevant distinctions) that threw off the priestly stranglehold with those that continued under the papal yoke.
Or, compare standard of living in any specific country before and after separating church from state.
There are always other features and events that happened at the same time, so it will be difficult to convince someone who wants to raise objections. But then, some people will never be convinced, because they don't want to examine their illusions.

Of course, you are right. While religion doesn't cause poverty directly, it supports all the features of a society that do cause poverty: dogma, ignorance, inequality, exploitation, discrimination, oppression and meek acceptance of oppression.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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29-01-2012, 04:04 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
I'm afraid you're fighting an uphill battle. While religion does sometimes cause poverty, specific statistics are going to be difficult to find. On the other hand, it's easy to point to statistics about good done by religious charities.
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29-01-2012, 04:15 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2012 04:33 PM by Jeff.)
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
(29-01-2012 02:43 PM)Cubic Bubbles Wrote:  Of course, that was stupid of me, since I cannot back it up by references. My opponent claims that religion doesn't cause poverty. Is there anyone here that can help me find something to back my claim?

I think Hitchens made this argument in God Is Not Great so if you have that, take a look. With or without that I think it's a pretty direct connection - as follows:

Some major religions, for example Catholicism, teach not to use readily available and inexpensive birth controls such as condoms, preaching instead the methods of abstinence and timing. Without condoms, the population rises, as does sexually transmitted disease, so you have more young people and a higher death rate among the parent population. When people of little income or means have to start spending their resources or money on additional children to feed, house and clothe, and when they spend more money on medicine, or lose the ability to work due to disease, or lose their parents, the poverty rate goes up.

This doesn't make religion the sole cause of poverty, but it seems unavoidable that it contributes to it greatly, particularly in 3rd world areas of little wealth.


Piece here on connection between catholic church policy against condom use, leading to hiv/aids - http://www.condoms4life.org/facts/lesserEvil.htm

“When priests preach against using contraception, they are committing a serious mistake which is costing human lives.” With this distinctly undiplomatic language, Peter Piot, head of the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS), voiced the international community’s continuing distress over the Catholic church’s policy on condoms. “We do not ask the church to promote contraception, but merely to stop banning its use,”

Piece here on connection between hiv/aids and poverty - http://www.globalcitizencorps.org/groups...alth/10507

Around the world, fifteen million children - five times the population of Iowa - have lost their parents to HIV/AIDS. Of these children, eleven million live in Sub-Saharan Africa, which contains around two-thirds of all HIV/AIDS cases (Michel Kazatchkine). Children who have been orphaned by AIDS often grow up in harsh conditions and are forced to give up an education, meals, and even childhood. These are only a few of the effects that this disease has had upon the growing number of children orphaned by HIV/AIDS. This disease has served as a hindrance to many people, preventing them from improving their situation and remaining in poverty.
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29-01-2012, 04:42 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
I dunno bout this one. I think too many correlative leaps need to be taken to make a good solid argument. I can definitely see it, but to really debate this strongly I think you'll be hard pressed.

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29-01-2012, 06:53 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
(29-01-2012 04:04 PM)Ben Wrote:  I'm afraid you're fighting an uphill battle. While religion does sometimes cause poverty, specific statistics are going to be difficult to find. On the other hand, it's easy to point to statistics about good done by religious charities.

Do religious charities change the economic situation, disparity of income percent of population living in poverty? Never. Why are so many charities needed in religious countries? Because there is too much poverty. A healthy society doesn't rely on charity: it takes care of all its people and doesn't make any more people than it can take care of. Religious organizations always encourage population increase, and discourage individual autonomy, especially of women.
I mean, who else would condemn a teenaged rape-victim to motherhood?

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29-01-2012, 07:54 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
(29-01-2012 02:43 PM)Cubic Bubbles Wrote:  Oh man, I have gotten myself into quarrels online lately. I need to calm down.

This time it's about different religions banning methods of contraception and refusing females control over their own bodies resulting in lots of children = poverty.

Of course, that was stupid of me, since I cannot back it up by references. My opponent claims that religion doesn't cause poverty. Is there anyone here that can help me find something to back my claim?

.... I seriously need to get offline... or solely get into this whole "reposting kittens and rainbows"-thingy.

Oh Bubbie. You might want to keep those kittens and rainbows bookmarked.

Ok. Two very quick reads: Freakonomics and Super Freakonomics might --- and that's a HUGE MIGHT --- help you out. Fun, fantastic, pop culture reads which can greatly add to your contemporary world outlook. Not to mention, the information contained might keep you at arm's length from future online squabbles.

I don't know so much about religion effecting poverty per se, or if there have been statistics recorded which would correlate any data, but there is data which directly states: education = income
From this information, if you are able to put together something which would equate number of children per household vs ability to educate those children, then you might have something to work with.
You would also need to include stats establishing the economic feasibility of a secular household vs a religious household to put a child through an accredited college or university. The related statistics would revolve around several factors including age, income, sex, education, religion, as well as the parents' age, education, and religion, which would be separate statistics and would also need to correlate.

So yes, as others have advised; uphill... big hill. Armed with all of the above, you're still going to need a lot of bullshit and ducktape to get you through.

Stay calm and if nothing else, make sure the guy sees that it's not all as black and white as he has decided it to be. You won't win the war, but you just might black an eye or two, learn a shit load, and be ready by just knowing the next fight might not be worth it.
Good luck.
Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-01-2012, 08:49 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
(29-01-2012 06:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  
(29-01-2012 04:04 PM)Ben Wrote:  I'm afraid you're fighting an uphill battle. While religion does sometimes cause poverty, specific statistics are going to be difficult to find. On the other hand, it's easy to point to statistics about good done by religious charities.

Do religious charities change the economic situation, disparity of income percent of population living in poverty? Never. Why are so many charities needed in religious countries? Because there is too much poverty. A healthy society doesn't rely on charity: it takes care of all its people and doesn't make any more people than it can take care of. Religious organizations always encourage population increase, and discourage individual autonomy, especially of women.
I mean, who else would condemn a teenaged rape-victim to motherhood?

That's not quite fair - I've seen quite a few religious organizations that are designed to help homeless people get a job and become independent. You're right that a lot of them are like that, but not always.
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