Religion causing poverty? Need help here
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-01-2012, 10:13 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
Farther: “The mills closed. There’s no more work.”
“We’re destitute.”
Children: “Ohhhh”
Farther: “I’m afraid I have no choice but to sell you all for medical experiments.”

Monty Python's Meaning Of Life.


And on another note, is it 10% of gross earnings that the thieving scum want for your ticket to heaven?
They are just trying to help… themselves predominantly…

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-01-2012, 10:25 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
Try this - Religion is to Poverty, as Welfare is to Deadbeats. No? Alright then.

As Kim posted, Freakonomics is a good read for cases like this. Read them first before you commit to an argument of any subject. I especially like the part about how legal abortion leads to lower crime rates.

Religion cannot be solely responsible for poverty in the world. Zealots and politicians that are living the high life while their congregation or constituents scrape every penny for support can be responsible. Politics, economics, social order and countless other factors can lead to poverty. To place it on the shoulders of religion exclusively is not a battle that is worth fighting - and rarely won by either side.

Good luck.

"I feel like the weight of the world has been lifted from my shoulders...
Thanks for getting off my back!"
-
Arcticspear Idea
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-01-2012, 01:41 AM (This post was last modified: 30-01-2012 01:43 AM by Cubic Bubbles.)
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
Thanks for all your input! Smile In my bookshelf I got Hitchens and the first Freakonomics (just realized that they are blogging too), and maybe Dawkins books can help me.

After this I'm going straight back to kittens and rainbows, I'm not cut out for discussions like this.
(29-01-2012 10:25 PM)arcticspear Wrote:  Try this - Religion is to Poverty, as Welfare is to Deadbeats. No? Alright then.

Being a foreigner and all, I'm not familiar with the term "Deadbeats".

"Never underestimate how narrow-minded, petty and stupid people can be". Mark Fulton, forum member
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-01-2012, 09:31 AM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
(29-01-2012 08:49 PM)Ben Wrote:  
(29-01-2012 06:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Do religious charities change the economic situation, disparity of income percent of population living in poverty? Never. Why are so many charities needed in religious countries? Because there is too much poverty. A healthy society doesn't rely on charity: it takes care of all its people and doesn't make any more people than it can take care of. Religious organizations always encourage population increase, and discourage individual autonomy, especially of women.
I mean, who else would condemn a teenaged rape-victim to motherhood?

That's not quite fair - I've seen quite a few religious organizations that are designed to help homeless people get a job and become independent. You're right that a lot of them are like that, but not always.

Fair? Of course charities help. That's their purpose.
All i said was, they shouldn't be needed.
Having spread discord, disease and mayhem among the aboriginals; having supported the slave trade which destroyed a hundred African communities, the church sent out a half a dozen nuns to minister to dying children. How sweet!
Having upheld, legitimized, propagandized and campaigned for, a capitalist system that systemetically turns millions of men into drones, uses them up and discards them, the church sets up a few soup kitchen and rehabilitates a few bums. Admirable!

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-01-2012, 06:52 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
(30-01-2012 09:31 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
(29-01-2012 08:49 PM)Ben Wrote:  
(29-01-2012 06:53 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Do religious charities change the economic situation, disparity of income percent of population living in poverty? Never. Why are so many charities needed in religious countries? Because there is too much poverty. A healthy society doesn't rely on charity: it takes care of all its people and doesn't make any more people than it can take care of. Religious organizations always encourage population increase, and discourage individual autonomy, especially of women.
I mean, who else would condemn a teenaged rape-victim to motherhood?

That's not quite fair - I've seen quite a few religious organizations that are designed to help homeless people get a job and become independent. You're right that a lot of them are like that, but not always.

Fair? Of course charities help. That's their purpose.
All i said was, they shouldn't be needed.

That's not all you said. Wink

Quote:Do religious charities change the economic situation, disparity of income percent of population living in poverty? Never.
Quote:Religious organizations always encourage population increase, and discourage individual autonomy, especially of women.

You made a couple of absolute always/never statements and that's what I'm saying isn't fair.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-01-2012, 07:20 PM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
Which religions have improved the economic situation and raised the living standard of which nations?
Which churches have discouraged population increase?
Which religious organizations have advocated free thought and personal freedom?

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
31-01-2012, 05:55 PM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2012 05:59 PM by Ben.)
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
(30-01-2012 07:20 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Which religions have improved the economic situation and raised the living standard of which nations?
Outreach International, a religious organization ("We believe all people are created by God") outlines in their annual report how they have increased the standard of living in several nations and communities by teaching people better agricultural methods, helping them build sustainable supplies of clean water, providing education and adult literacy programs, and improving sanitation.

Especially see pages 10 and 11 which deal with their work in the Philippines.

"Microenterprise... has increased household incomes."

Quote:Which churches have discouraged population increase?

The Presbyterian Church supports access to birth control. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_...th_control

Quote:Which religious organizations have advocated free thought and personal freedom?
I have already given an example of how some charities work to give people independence and educate them.

All that being said, I still think religion is a source of much more destruction than good. The examples I provided are the happy exception, not the norm. A secular organization would be much better equipped than one distracted by religion to help do real, lasting good for a region.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Ben's post
08-05-2012, 06:18 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2012 06:57 PM by Oasisbill.)
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
Try comparing the standard of living between secular countries such as Norway, Australia, Denmark, with religious countries. There is plenty of comparative information there. I think Sam Harris makes this point in his book,"Letter To a Christian Nation".
There are also the effects of religion on rational scientific exploration and discovery. Where would civilization be now had the church not crushed Copernicus and Galileo 400-500 years ago?

Also watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQ0i3nCx60
"Mother Teresa was not a friend of the poor, she was a friend of poverty."

Abstinence - 99.9% effective...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-05-2012, 05:04 AM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
What about religion as a consequence of poverty? Desperate people in bad situations with little to do would be in more need some of mental crutches or some omnipotent being that has some kind of plan for them. There must be some higher reason for their suffering and fucked up situation right?

People in poverty don't have access to education. Unless it's the 'education' provided by church missionaries/religious charities.

In my time at church I generally found that religion attracts the needy or vice versa. Allot of people there in the lowest percentile of the income bracket. A disproportionate number of people that were physically or mentally impaired.
I don't think it was just the church I went to. It's probably like that in many churches. I don't think it's healthy to pack that many people with problems so closely together. Seeing all those people with problems feeding each others insanity and pretending none of their problems exist once a week. It's one of the many things that drove me away.

Watching people with tiny incomes giving 10% every week kinda gave me pause. Undecided
That money would be better spent elsewhere.

Maybe I'm being a little harsh here but looking at what religion has done over the centuries I think it's warranted.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes DeepThought's post
11-05-2012, 10:49 AM
RE: Religion causing poverty? Need help here
(29-01-2012 02:43 PM)Cubic Bubbles Wrote:  Oh man, I have gotten myself into quarrels online lately. I need to calm down.

This time it's about different religions banning methods of contraception and refusing females control over their own bodies resulting in lots of children = poverty.

Of course, that was stupid of me, since I cannot back it up by references. My opponent claims that religion doesn't cause poverty. Is there anyone here that can help me find something to back my claim?

.... I seriously need to get offline... or solely get into this whole "reposting kittens and rainbows"-thingy.
I lived in Salt Lake City, UT for a couple of years and saw this firsthand. The LDS Church is so family driven and having children (and lots of them!) seems to be a priority. It traces back to some of Mormonism's inner crazy batshit about pre-existence.

As a primer on the inner secrets of Mormonism, the LDS believe that God (Elohim) was once a human man born somewhere far, far off in the cosmos to human parents. As he obeyed and adhered to Mormon teachings, Elohim was granted godhood status when he died and was given a planet of his own to rule over and an eternal spirit family. The planet the god Elohim lives on is called Kolob. Exactly where in the cosmos Kolob lies is a mystery, though it must be somewhere near Earth, as Elohim, and his sons Jesus and Lucifer, make frequent trips there.

So Elohim now spends his days on the planet Kolob (I'm laughing as I type this) having sex with his spirit wives - its a hard eternal life. In turn, his spirit wives become pregnant and have spirit babies. These spirit babies, once born, are in a state called pre-existence. On Kolob they await transport to the womb of a human woman on Earth to be born as a flesh and blood human to endure The Trials. You see, Elohim intends to have his own spirit children attain godhood as well, but they must first be tested and proven obedient to Mormon teachings, just as he was. So Elohim created planet Earth, where the spirit babies would be sent to face their trials and tribulations as humans. This plan wasn't without controversy. Elohim's oldest son, Lucifer, violently opposed the idea and cost Elohim 1/3 of his children, who joined with Lucifer to overthrow Elohim in the great civil war of Kolob. Lucifer & Co. were defeated by Elohim's forces and cast down to earth as demons. To make further example, Elohim went as far as to curse his children, who were neutral about the dispute, with dark skin. This is where the negro race comes from. No, I am NOT drinking bleach right now; it's what Mormons really believe, but thanks for your concern.

So good Mormons today will have large families and lots of children because they believe they are providing bodies to spirit babies to be born into this world for their trials to earn godhood status. They also believe that this is being obedient to the will of their Heavenly Father, Elohim and will prove themselves worthy to become gods when they die. Then they, and their wives and children, will receive a planet all their own to populate and rule, just as Elohim, and his father before him, did.

Back in reality, however, this esoteric bullshit ignores the fact that every child you have is an 18 year long, $500,000 investment in the future. And if you only make $35,000/year as a secretary with four kids, you're really fucked. This is why a lot of Utah is rife with poverty. Parents having children they cannot afford to care for and cannot dig their way out of this hole. Rates of depression and suicide are very high in the state of Utah, for this reason, as well as excommunicated Mormons who are gay or atheist and shunned by the community at large. It is very tragic.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against having large families and if you want a lot of children and can afford to care for them, by all means do so. But if you are not capable of giving them a good life, please do not have them. And don't let a idiotic fairytale like pre-existence convince you otherwise, ruining your baby's life and yours in the process.

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: