Religion's Death Throes...*
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
10-05-2017, 08:25 PM
RE: Religion's Death Throes...*
I've thought that for a while in precisely those terms. I'm just hoping I can stay away from the spasms, the last ones are gonna be the worst.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like GirlyMan's post
10-05-2017, 08:33 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 08:56 PM by Vera.)
RE: Religion's Death Throes...*
(10-05-2017 08:03 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  Yeah see I've only been like this for about a year. For years when I was bombarded with scientific information I would hold on to my belief in God by creating just, I dunno, I guess essentially random ad hoc rationalizations so that my belief in God was relatively palatable along with science, until I realized it wasn't I suppose. I realized that any good argument for God was actually a potentially sound argument for deism, and that's about it.

Yeah if it helps someone or someone can identify with it that would be enough. Smile

... ... I do have a tendency to say too much I find haha. It's often because I want my point to be crystal clear. If it's not I feel like I failed somehow.

I think you might enjoy this, then.

"Now, though, I am free. I can look the universe square in the eye, and I don’t have to be afraid I might discover something I didn’t want to know."

I remember being dimly aware of major scientific discoveries (usually when someone from church or on God TV attempted to prove they fulfilled some apocalyptic prophecy), but the important thing was never to look directly at them.

Young-Earth creationism is a fragile thing, and the discovery of something like gravitational waves is incompatible with it, even if you have to make quite a few jumps to see exactly why. It’s not that they are completely irreconcilable. It’s just that the people making these discoveries are the ones who claim it all fits into a coherent framework which completely annihilates young-Earthism, while creationists reply “… mumble mumble maybe God made the universe with beams of light already in transit”.

Usually a great cosmological discovery would warrant some comment at church, some “Isn’t God great? The universe is so bafflingly huge! Only something even bigger could have made it! That’s how great our God is! And those tiny-minded atheists actually think all this came from nothing!” followed by loud choruses of LOLs and hallelujahs, directed at the backwardness of atheist scientists and greatness of God respectively.

For me such rejoicing was always tinged with some unease, because any news report about a finding in deep space also contained a lot of stuff that We Did Not Believe. People in white coats explained about the Big Bang and events taking place billions of years ago (which meant we were actually seeing things happen billions of years before the alleged creation of the universe), and how all this fitted together and increased our understanding of the early universe.

The only thing I could do in response to that was shrug and think “Well, obviously they’re wrong”. I didn’t know why, but I knew what the Bible said, so there must be an explanation. I would find out when I got to heaven.

There were a lot of things I was going to find out when I got to heaven.
Otherwise the explanation was just “God decided to make it that way”, which, as explanations go, is more of a dead end than a line of inquiry. Either way, the trick with astronomical or cosmological discoveries was to know just enough about them to say “the universe is amazing” while remaining just ignorant enough to say “the universe is a mystery known only to God”. That’s a narrow window of learning in which to operate, and the best thing was just to steer clear. We’d have all of eternity to catch up on physics. Right now the important thing is staying faithful to God.

Now, though, I am free. I can look the universe square in the eye, and I don’t have to be afraid I might discover something I didn’t want to know.

As I write this, Answers in Genesis has not yet posted anything about the latest discovery. Perhaps the initial results won’t be replicated, and they’ll be spared the trouble, as they were with the gravitational wave false alarm of 2014. I’m betting there will be a response though. There is no scientific finding so robust that Ken Ham cannot find a way to spin it. And the spin will work just fine, as long as you don’t look directly at it.

(Oh, I definitely can talk/write too much. Only, little of it is (entirely) serious. And I do know exactly what you mean when you say you want to make sure others know exactly what you're saying Yes

I don't know, Girly, I think after the current bang they *will* go out with a whimper.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Vera's post
10-05-2017, 10:19 PM
RE: Religion's Death Throes...*
Quote:I think that religion is on it's way out, and it knows it and is fighting back. But - there are more and more vocal atheists, and younger ones, too. That is how the gay community got going - more and more people coming out after the young ones made enough noise.

It takes a few generations for these things.... And in the US, we better change the government out first.

That's actually a great analogy! I'm hoping that's the way it is. Like the atheist coming out of the closet lol. I'm fairly young I think. 26. I don't know if that's considered young anymore. I like to think 'young' is a state of mind.

And yeah definitely. I've heard a lot of that was more people voting not for Hillary rather than for Trump, if you know what I mean, but I don't live in the US so i likely don't know the full scope of what happened there. I'm just going by what I read on a few different SM feeds. I do know that this beautiful little jot is on the Declaration of Independence of the United States though:

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

So there's always hope! Smile

And yeah needless to say, Mr. Trump should calm down on his executive orders and biased appointments.

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
-Neil Degrasse Tyson
[Image: stairway_to_heaven_by_tomtr.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Cosmo's post
10-05-2017, 10:40 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2017 10:57 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: Religion's Death Throes...*
Quote:I've thought that for a while in precisely those terms. I'm just hoping I can stay away from the spasms, the last ones are gonna be the worst.

That's literally what I'm scared of. I wonder what it will even look like. My hope, and sometimes I wonder if this is the way it will play out, is that there will just be such a vast wealth of empirical knowledge that explains so much of the Universes history and our experience within it so that a God concept is not necessary for existential comfort.

This is probably a pipe dream though.

Quote:I think you might enjoy this, then.

"Now, though, I am free. I can look the universe square in the eye, and I don’t have to be afraid I might discover something I didn’t want to know."



(Oh, I definitely can talk/write too much. Only, little of it is (entirely) serious. And I do know exactly what you mean when you say you want to make sure others know exactly what you're saying Yes

I don't know, Girly, I think after the current bang they *will* go out with a whimper.

I did enjoy that immensely. The line of inquiry ends exactly where you stop asking questions right at the time when you need Empirical answers. We exist at a point in time right now where it seems that the God of the gaps exists only in philosophical cracks, not scientific ones, with maybe the exception of the origin of the Universe. That still seems philosophical to me though actually, and Occam's razor logically would preclude that a God would apply an extra unnecessary line of causation.

I'm serious like 60% of the time... yeah... a good 50% we'll say.

Maybe 40%...

...

No less than 30%. Wink

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
-Neil Degrasse Tyson
[Image: stairway_to_heaven_by_tomtr.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Cosmo's post
11-05-2017, 12:08 AM
RE: Religion's Death Throes...*
(10-05-2017 04:21 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  From the Muslim community, this has sparked rage, anger, violent protesting, and the death of apostates...

Now... I hate Islamic ideology. I want to make that very clear. I don't hate Christianity, so much as feel like it is totally befuddling and logically self defeating...

Islam, however, while also being befuddling (fucking retarded, I believe, is an appropriate term,) is a toxic manifestation of all that is cruel and wrong with the world. Rather than being subtle about its attempted infiltration of government it has openly declared that Muslims do not have to listen to a government that doesn't respect Islamic law first and foremost...

Totally agree with the thrust of these comments about the insidious and divisive nature of Islam and its adherents. The local Muslim population—whatever Western country they choose to reside in—will demand all sorts of exemptions from the laws of their adopted land, and will cause major ructions, and accuse the local, non-Muslim population of racism and/or religious oppression, and personal vilification if they don't get their way.

We've already had a few serious examples of this behaviour in Australia. Muslim women refusing to remove their niqabs when driving motor vehicles, having license photographs taken, or entering banks, post offices, and other government offices. We've also had issues with these people demanding to build huge mosques in suburban locations, immediately adjacent to existing houses. And this of course raises the issue of noise pollution—with "calls to prayer" being broadcast at 6AM every day at untenable levels and in breach of local environmental noise protection standards. But they don't care, and it usually ends up in court.

Muslims consistently refuse to assimilate smoothly into a—particularly—secular society such as is now predominant in Australia. And their spokespeople invariably speak on TV and other media in a very vociferous and often confrontational way that's totally at odds with the average Aussies laid-back style and (normally) tolerant attitude.

Last month, we had the case of a mouthy young Sudanese, migrant Muslim woman indirectly insulting the population on one of our most revered national days, ANZAC day—by posting an offensive personal political statement on her Facebook page, and which she was later forced to delete and apologise for. It'd be like a Muslim migrant in America bitching about the treatment of native Americans on the 4th of July or Thanksgiving. It's just not the time nor the place to air extremist political views.

You may be surprised though by the degree of tolerance shown by some members of this forum—despite Islam possibly being the most oppressive, brutal and dictatorial of all religions. I posted some negative comments about Muslim women having the official right to wear the hijab on basketball courts, along with full leg and arm coverings, and was surprised at the number of comments censuring me for my opposition to this. Atheists can be a funny bunch sometimes.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like SYZ's post
11-05-2017, 02:18 AM
RE: Religion's Death Throes...*
(10-05-2017 06:51 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
Quote:I *so* had to stop myself from going where Gwaithmir went, but didn't want Cosmo for feel like a bit of a damp squid Big Grin

Lol thanks! Confused

I thought I made some good points, and I feel like they were completely invalidated by that, Facepalm and I like to think I have a decent grasp of the english language. Maybe not. Ick. Lol.

Still pretty funny though. Giant, basically essay of thought, and... big spelling error in the title. What would a prof think of that?

Bleh... ...

> Great post, though. Thumbsup
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Gwaithmir's post
11-05-2017, 06:56 AM
RE: Religion's Death Throes...*
I can't bring myself to believe religion is on its way out. People are becoming less educated and more gullible with the rise of the internet. I think religious and magical thinking will get stronger, at least in the US. We're so dumb, and a scary portion is damn proud to be that way. Look at Trump supporters. They're being lied to their face and are loving it. The GOP has propaganda a mis-information down to a science and any attempt at reasoning is falls on intentionally deaf ears. I doubt the next elect will change things much. Maybe I'm just old and crotchety.

BTW, hippies......GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like kemo boy's post
11-05-2017, 07:04 AM
RE: Religion's Death Throes...*
(11-05-2017 06:56 AM)kemo boy Wrote:  I can't bring myself to believe religion is on its way out. People are becoming less educated and more gullible with the rise of the internet. I think religious and magical thinking will get stronger, at least in the US. We're so dumb, and a scary portion is damn proud to be that way. Look at Trump supporters. They're being lied to their face and are loving it. The GOP has propaganda a mis-information down to a science and any attempt at reasoning is falls on intentionally deaf ears. I doubt the next elect will change things much. Maybe I'm just old and crotchety.

BTW, hippies......GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!

I'm old and crotchety myself, and I am sitting in a lawn chair on your lawn, wearing colorful clothes and puffing on a doobie. I'm watching the current youth and seeing lots of teenage atheists at odds with their parents.... I remain positive.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
11-05-2017, 07:16 AM
RE: Religion's Death Throes...*
All the ones who came before the current especially poisonous batch went away, and so may (and will) this.

Also, being European, where atheism (especially among young people) is pretty much the norm - yeah, it's not its way out. The gaps god's still trying to hide in are becoming ever smaller and soon even the most desperate will not be able to fit him in such a tiny crack.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Vera's post
11-05-2017, 07:28 AM
RE: Religion's Death Throes...*
(11-05-2017 07:16 AM)Vera Wrote:  All the ones who came before the current especially poisonous batch went away, and so may (and will) this.

Also, being European, where atheism (especially among young people) is pretty much the norm - yeah, it's not its way out. The gaps god's still trying to hide in are becoming ever smaller and soon even the most desperate will not be able to fit him in such a tiny crack.

I hope I'm wrong.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: