Religion's Utility
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22-06-2015, 01:25 PM
RE: Religion's Utility
Something decent had to be added to this thread, Australian beauty, Samantha Harris.

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NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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22-06-2015, 05:18 PM
RE: Religion's Utility
(22-06-2015 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-06-2015 10:33 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  It does something for some people. But what, if anything, does it do for someone that cannot be done without religion - i.e. what's religion doing for you that ONLY religion can do for you?

I guess the question here would have to be, is there something that's particularly different or unique about the lives, and being of certain religious people, that's not present in the lives of unbelievers?

I think the answer is yes, though I know others would answer differently based on their own experiences. I think one of the most glaring difference, is that the language, and overall sense of life tend to be distinct, because for believers of pretty much any stripe life is goal-oriented, teleological, and any particularly discussion about goodness, morality, justice, wholeness, love, the soul, forgiveness, meaning etc.. are incapsulated by this. A believer is always seeking some supposed path, a road they must find and walk on, while for most unbelievers I'd say, believe no such path exist.

Atheists, particular those prone to some degree of self awareness, there is a sense in which these terms of value begin to erode in a non-telelogical view, that it sometimes appears that in discussion among believers and unbelievers that they are both talking about entirely different things.

Quote:because for believers of pretty much any stripe life is goal-oriented, teleological, and any particularly discussion about goodness, morality, justice, wholeness, love, the soul, forgiveness, meaning etc.. are incapsulated by this. A believer is always seeking some supposed path, a road they must find and walk on, while for most unbelievers I'd say, believe no such path exist.

This is total nonsense. As someone brought up in a cabin in the wilds of the Sierra Nevada Mountains with zero religious contact. I had no idea the concept of a god existed. Didn't know who the hell Jesus was. We had no tv, a smattering of one fuzzy radio station only when the wind blew in just the right direction, an out house for a bathroom etc., I am a prime example of someone who had no religious influences of any kind.

Yet, guess what? I have empathy for others, have a path in life based on existing for a few decades. I have goals based on this short existence. I'm moral- been married 26 years. I love my family. And I thoroughly enjoy life.

You like to give the word "path" some sort of religious overtones yet many people, myself included, have a path that has nothing to do with god, Jesus, Buddha or any of the Hindu gods. Our path has far more meaning than the manipulated, pre-planned god world you live in because it is of our own unique individual process and making.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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22-06-2015, 06:00 PM
RE: Religion's Utility
(22-06-2015 05:18 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I guess the question here would have to be, is there something that's particularly different or unique about the lives, and being of certain religious people, that's not present in the lives of unbelievers?

I think the answer is yes, though I know others would answer differently based on their own experiences. I think one of the most glaring difference, is that the language, and overall sense of life tend to be distinct, because for believers of pretty much any stripe life is goal-oriented, teleological, and any particularly discussion about goodness, morality, justice, wholeness, love, the soul, forgiveness, meaning etc.. are incapsulated by this. A believer is always seeking some supposed path, a road they must find and walk on, while for most unbelievers I'd say, believe no such path exist.

Atheists, particular those prone to some degree of self awareness, there is a sense in which these terms of value begin to erode in a non-telelogical view, that it sometimes appears that in discussion among believers and unbelievers that they are both talking about entirely different things.

Quote:because for believers of pretty much any stripe life is goal-oriented, teleological, and any particularly discussion about goodness, morality, justice, wholeness, love, the soul, forgiveness, meaning etc.. are incapsulated by this. A believer is always seeking some supposed path, a road they must find and walk on, while for most unbelievers I'd say, believe no such path exist.

This is total nonsense. As someone brought up in a cabin in the wilds of the Sierra Nevada Mountains with zero religious contact. I had no idea the concept of a god existed. Didn't know who the hell Jesus was. We had no tv, a smattering of one fuzzy radio station only when the wind blew in just the right direction, an out house for a bathroom etc., I am a prime example of someone who had no religious influences of any kind.

Yet, guess what? I have empathy for others, have a path in life based on existing for a few decades. I have goals based on this short existence. I'm moral- been married 26 years. I love my family. And I thoroughly enjoy life.

You like to give the word "path" some sort of religious overtones yet many people, myself included, have a path that has nothing to do with god, Jesus, Buddha or any of the Hindu gods. Our path has far more meaning than the manipulated, pre-planned god world you live in because it is of our own unique individual process and making.

^ Yeah. What she said.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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22-06-2015, 06:04 PM
RE: Religion's Utility
(22-06-2015 05:18 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I guess the question here would have to be, is there something that's particularly different or unique about the lives, and being of certain religious people, that's not present in the lives of unbelievers?

I think the answer is yes, though I know others would answer differently based on their own experiences. I think one of the most glaring difference, is that the language, and overall sense of life tend to be distinct, because for believers of pretty much any stripe life is goal-oriented, teleological, and any particularly discussion about goodness, morality, justice, wholeness, love, the soul, forgiveness, meaning etc.. are incapsulated by this. A believer is always seeking some supposed path, a road they must find and walk on, while for most unbelievers I'd say, believe no such path exist.

Atheists, particular those prone to some degree of self awareness, there is a sense in which these terms of value begin to erode in a non-telelogical view, that it sometimes appears that in discussion among believers and unbelievers that they are both talking about entirely different things.

Quote:because for believers of pretty much any stripe life is goal-oriented, teleological, and any particularly discussion about goodness, morality, justice, wholeness, love, the soul, forgiveness, meaning etc.. are incapsulated by this. A believer is always seeking some supposed path, a road they must find and walk on, while for most unbelievers I'd say, believe no such path exist.

This is total nonsense. As someone brought up in a cabin in the wilds of the Sierra Nevada Mountains with zero religious contact. I had no idea the concept of a god existed. Didn't know who the hell Jesus was. We had no tv, a smattering of one fuzzy radio station only when the wind blew in just the right direction, an out house for a bathroom etc., I am a prime example of someone who had no religious influences of any kind.

Yet, guess what? I have empathy for others, have a path in life based on existing for a few decades. I have goals based on this short existence. I'm moral- been married 26 years. I love my family. And I thoroughly enjoy life.

You like to give the word "path" some sort of religious overtones yet many people, myself included, have a path that has nothing to do with god, Jesus, Buddha or any of the Hindu gods. Our path has far more meaning than the manipulated, pre-planned god world you live in because it is of our own unique individual process and making.

TL/DR version:

Tomasia you can shove your righteous indignation up your ass. Smile
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22-06-2015, 06:08 PM
RE: Religion's Utility
(22-06-2015 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Atheists, particular those prone to some degree of self awareness, there is a sense in which these terms of value begin to erode in a non-telelogical view, that it sometimes appears that in discussion among believers and unbelievers that they are both talking about entirely different things.

You got any empirical evidence for that bullshit assertion ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-06-2015, 06:45 PM
RE: Religion's Utility
(21-06-2015 08:47 PM)natachan Wrote:  Death is scary. And the fact that we live in a staggeringly large universe that is completely indifferent to our existence is frightening. We fear our own death. We fear the vastness of the universe. We fear the ultimate meaninglessness of our lives to the general universe.

Religion helps people cope with it. It scales back the universe and allows people to evade the inevitability of death.

Death was only TRULY "scary" when I held the supernatural, particularly of a religious inclination, by its coattails. I have friends who describe the same random terror, brought on by some wandering fantasy of the future, & the mental harm it can do to a person -that we (those friends, myself, & plenty of people we don't even know) experienced up to early adulthood. Now death holds no shadow of fear. I'm much happier being able to focus on the life I'm living before it is over.

You're point to a vast universe of "indifference" is understood, & empathetic, but also floods our minds with wonder, and the beautiful imagery of the greatest theater we humankind could dream to play in. I have a passion, whether the Universe cares or not is irrelevant. I am amazed, & I am curious.

I never understood how religions could claim victory over death, when their houses are built on, they worship, & weep for their day of united DEATH. I know they claim it by spouting their version of eternal life, but with the aforementioned, brazen, contradictions to that... it just sounds lacking of any serious credibility. And that's only keeping it within a theistic worldview. {Pick your favorite profanity to close.}
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23-06-2015, 02:19 AM
RE: Religion's Utility
(22-06-2015 05:18 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 06:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I guess the question here would have to be, is there something that's particularly different or unique about the lives, and being of certain religious people, that's not present in the lives of unbelievers?

I think the answer is yes, though I know others would answer differently based on their own experiences. I think one of the most glaring difference, is that the language, and overall sense of life tend to be distinct, because for believers of pretty much any stripe life is goal-oriented, teleological, and any particularly discussion about goodness, morality, justice, wholeness, love, the soul, forgiveness, meaning etc.. are incapsulated by this. A believer is always seeking some supposed path, a road they must find and walk on, while for most unbelievers I'd say, believe no such path exist.

Atheists, particular those prone to some degree of self awareness, there is a sense in which these terms of value begin to erode in a non-telelogical view, that it sometimes appears that in discussion among believers and unbelievers that they are both talking about entirely different things.

Quote:because for believers of pretty much any stripe life is goal-oriented, teleological, and any particularly discussion about goodness, morality, justice, wholeness, love, the soul, forgiveness, meaning etc.. are incapsulated by this. A believer is always seeking some supposed path, a road they must find and walk on, while for most unbelievers I'd say, believe no such path exist.

This is total nonsense. As someone brought up in a cabin in the wilds of the Sierra Nevada Mountains with zero religious contact. I had no idea the concept of a god existed. Didn't know who the hell Jesus was. We had no tv, a smattering of one fuzzy radio station only when the wind blew in just the right direction, an out house for a bathroom etc., I am a prime example of someone who had no religious influences of any kind.

Yet, guess what? I have empathy for others, have a path in life based on existing for a few decades. I have goals based on this short existence. I'm moral- been married 26 years. I love my family. And I thoroughly enjoy life.

You like to give the word "path" some sort of religious overtones yet many people, myself included, have a path that has nothing to do with god, Jesus, Buddha or any of the Hindu gods. Our path has far more meaning than the manipulated, pre-planned god world you live in because it is of our own unique individual process and making.

I wish I was bought up in a cabin with Samantha Harris
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23-06-2015, 02:37 AM
RE: Religion's Utility
(21-06-2015 08:47 PM)natachan Wrote:  Death is scary. And the fact that we live in a staggeringly large universe that is completely indifferent to our existence is frightening. We fear our own death. We fear the vastness of the universe. We fear the ultimate meaninglessness of our lives to the general universe.

Religion helps people cope with it. It scales back the universe and allows people to evade the inevitability of death.

Before christianity appeared on this planet, Man wasn't particularly fearful of death and accepted it as part of life.

Before christianity, Man went to the afterlife when he died. There was only one afterlife.

Then christianity appeared. It created a two-tier afterlife (heaven and hell). Back when christians began peddling this tripe, you could pre-book your seat in heaven by giving freely to the crutch - sorry, I meant church. That's how the crutch, sorry, church, got rich (and, the people got poor). Heaven was a nice, warm and fluffy place. Hell was a very hot and smelly place where the devil lived. He made your life/death an eternal misery. Man then became scared of dying in case he hadn't given enough money to the church and was going to hell.

christianity: Something that creates fear in man and then sells you an expensive placebo.

Marburg virus, Ebola, Rabies, HIV, Smallpox, Hantavirus, Dengue Fever all brought to you by god - who cares for us and loves us all Censored
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23-06-2015, 07:28 AM
RE: Religion's Utility
(22-06-2015 05:18 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  This is total nonsense. As someone brought up in a cabin in the wilds of the Sierra Nevada Mountains with zero religious contact. I had no idea the concept of a god existed. Didn't know who the hell Jesus was. We had no tv, a smattering of one fuzzy radio station only when the wind blew in just the right direction, an out house for a bathroom etc., I am a prime example of someone who had no religious influences of any kind.

Are you a materialist though? Do you subscribe to metaphysical naturalism? Do you think we're here as some sort of fluke, or as product of some intention of some sort, here for a purpose?

Quote:Yet, guess what? I have empathy for others, have a path in life based on existing for a few decades. I have goals based on this short existence. I'm moral- been married 26 years. I love my family. And I thoroughly enjoy life.

I never meant to imply that you didn't. I didn't say anything about your love for your family, or whether or not you were a good person, or that you don't enjoy your life. I'm sure you do.

I was just saying that theism and religion is often predicated by a belief that life has a rhyme and reason behind it, some sort of transcendent or ultimate purpose, a narrative arc. So when religious people speak about love, or forgiveness, good and evil, these conceptions, these particular notions are connected to this belief. Unlike for an atheist, where the reference point is a local one, such in relationship to ones family, and subjective meanings and preferences. So when someone like Rev. King declares that only love can drive out hate, that only light can drive out darkness, that the arc of the universe bends towards justice, these beliefs stems for a teleological, or narrative view of life.

Those that don't particularly subscribe to this view (the sort of common self-identifying atheists), have to develop more local points of references, reconcile or discard these beliefs when in conflict with the non-telelogical, materialist view of the world.
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23-06-2015, 07:57 AM
RE: Religion's Utility
(23-06-2015 07:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-06-2015 05:18 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  This is total nonsense. As someone brought up in a cabin in the wilds of the Sierra Nevada Mountains with zero religious contact. I had no idea the concept of a god existed. Didn't know who the hell Jesus was. We had no tv, a smattering of one fuzzy radio station only when the wind blew in just the right direction, an out house for a bathroom etc., I am a prime example of someone who had no religious influences of any kind.

Are you a materialist though? Do you subscribe to metaphysical naturalism? Do you think we're here as some sort of fluke, or as product of some intention of some sort, here for a purpose?

Quote:Yet, guess what? I have empathy for others, have a path in life based on existing for a few decades. I have goals based on this short existence. I'm moral- been married 26 years. I love my family. And I thoroughly enjoy life.

I never meant to imply that you didn't. I didn't say anything about your love for your family, or whether or not you were a good person, or that you don't enjoy your life. I'm sure you do.

I was just saying that theism and religion is often predicated by a belief that life has a rhyme and reason behind it, some sort of transcendent or ultimate purpose, a narrative arc. So when religious people speak about love, or forgiveness, good and evil, these conceptions, these particular notions are connected to this belief. Unlike for an atheist, where the reference point is a local one, such in relationship to ones family, and subjective meanings and preferences. So when someone like Rev. King declares that only love can drive out hate, that only light can drive out darkness, that the arc of the universe bends towards justice, these beliefs stems for a teleological, or narrative view of life.

Those that don't particularly subscribe to this view (the sort of common self-identifying atheists), have to develop more local points of references, reconcile or discard these beliefs when in conflict with the non-telelogical, materialist view of the world.

What exactly is the rhyme and reason of purpose for life in your perspective?

I can't speak for all atheists but I'd bet many would agree with that, regardless of purpose, we are here for only a fleeting precious moments and we intend to make the best of it. There appears to be no "higher purpose" so ascribe purpose to our own lives as we see fit.
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