Religion without supernatural phenomena
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22-06-2014, 11:17 AM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(22-06-2014 11:13 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(22-06-2014 11:08 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  For tall the problems with Luminon's views please see this thread. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...hypothesis
Yeah, it's problematic, especially because of a lack of positive evidence and discrepancy in precise scientific meanings of what is "plasma", "energy", "electric potential" and so on. Most of what I say is a subject for social and cultural studies, not physics.
Happy?

No, you are a pseudo-intellectual who hears buzzwords like plasma or quantium and then tries to fit your particular woo into them disregarding every piece of evidence that disagrees and claims anyone who does not swallow your line of thinking is either a: Part of some nebulos conspiracy or b: Is not "Enlightened" enough to grasp your stance as if it is some esoteric masterpiece instead of shoddy ramblings and non-sequiturs.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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22-06-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(22-06-2014 11:17 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  No, you are a pseudo-intellectual who hears buzzwords like plasma or quantium and then tries to fit your particular woo into them disregarding every piece of evidence that disagrees and claims anyone who does not swallow your line of thinking is either a: Part of some nebulos conspiracy or b: Is not "Enlightened" enough to grasp your stance as if it is some esoteric masterpiece instead of shoddy ramblings and non-sequiturs.
C'mon, honey, you give that treatment everyone who talks spiritual at you Drooling
I have my intellectual pursuits, but in this area I am just a simple hobbyist. I don't remember ever talking about the quantum stuff, I have a healthy instinct of self-preservation when it comes to mathematics.
Anyway, I watch you about as closely as you watch me, so I'll let the pseudo-intellectual accusation slide.
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22-06-2014, 09:35 PM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(22-06-2014 11:57 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(22-06-2014 11:17 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  No, you are a pseudo-intellectual who hears buzzwords like plasma or quantium and then tries to fit your particular woo into them disregarding every piece of evidence that disagrees and claims anyone who does not swallow your line of thinking is either a: Part of some nebulos conspiracy or b: Is not "Enlightened" enough to grasp your stance as if it is some esoteric masterpiece instead of shoddy ramblings and non-sequiturs.
C'mon, honey, you give that treatment everyone who talks spiritual at you Drooling
I have my intellectual pursuits, but in this area I am just a simple hobbyist. I don't remember ever talking about the quantum stuff, I have a healthy instinct of self-preservation when it comes to mathematics.
Anyway, I watch you about as closely as you watch me, so I'll let the pseudo-intellectual accusation slide.

You talk out of your ass about shit you don't have a fucking clue about, all the while pretending that you are some kind of "authority".



Flim-flam, you need to know that this guy is a bullshit artist and a pathological liar.


Don't take a fucking thing he says seriously, EVER.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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22-06-2014, 10:15 PM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
Flim-flam, you need to know that Luminon is, like all, a valued member of our community who will always defend his self-confessedly, unconventional views (often with highly off-putting walls of text) with a calm, patient and often sarcastic approach.

That is all.

Actually, you don't need to know that. You probably worked it out for yourself.

Wink

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22-06-2014, 10:20 PM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(22-06-2014 10:15 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Flim-flam, you need to know that Luminon is, like all, a valued member of our community who will always defend his self-confessedly, unconventional views (often with highly off-putting walls of text) with a calm, patient and often sarcastic approach.

That is all.

Actually, you don't need to know that. You probably worked it out for yourself.

Wink

.....says the guy who kisses the ass of every troll that wanders in.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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23-06-2014, 02:40 AM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2014 03:31 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
Flim-flam, we have a wonderful reputation system here.
I have an unconventional life and I like unconventional topics.
I'd be very surprised if Taq was interested in my posts enough to tell if I'm a liar or not.

The truth is, there is a war in America between Christianity that infiltrates government and schools and between community of scientists (many, maybe most funded by government) and skeptics. This war has extended to the area of New Age movement and woo-woo claims, because USA has Oprah, Chopra and this huge bullshit industry around them.
Some skeptics get militant, some like Taq, are just bullies for conventions. But not all skeptics are like that. The Cectic web comic summed it up real nice.

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23-06-2014, 07:21 AM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
"Some skeptics get militant, some like Taq, don't put up with ignorant poseurs like me spouting a bunch of incoherent bullshit and putting on airs, pretending I know what the fuck I'm talking about."

fixed that for ya.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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23-06-2014, 07:22 AM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
Thanks for the response, Luminon. I quoted your answer to my last question about androids and psi. You mentioned that purity affect psi (vegetarianism, social activism, ...). Also you mentioned that androids would not have ghost bodies like humans. I'm sure I didn't understand a lot of what you said, so I'm probably grossly oversimplifying it.

Anyway, this reminds me of the Christian belief that humans are distinct from animals because we are made in God's image, have an eternal soul, and all the rest. As soon as we believe there is more to humans than our physical bodies, then we worry about what happens to us after death. (Of course it depends what you mean by ghost bodies. Are they like shadows cast by the physical body or can they go on after death through reincarnation or life in paradise?) Also if we believe in too much psi then we are essentially believing that god-like magical abilities exist. This leads to a belief in gods even if we call them spirits instead.

So atheists should be strict believers in naturalism. Naturalism is better defined than atheism too. I think we could say that naturalism is the belief that science can eventually know everything about reality. If people believe in things that can't be studied using science then they should admit they are not atheists.

Likewise if religious people are strict believers in naturalism then they should admit that they are actually atheists.

So I guess I'm saying that naturalism should be the measure of atheism.

(22-06-2014 10:55 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(22-06-2014 07:30 AM)flim-flam Wrote:  Could an android do psi?
This question makes me feel as if a Spiderman fan would ask me if Superman can eat human food if he's powered by the Sun Tongue
But anyway, it's my hobby. I will not talk about the teachings themselves, because that's incomprehensible unless you have some personal experience with that. But there are technical parallels to be drawn to present science.
No, I don't think an android could do "psi". No more than a plant or a mineral (which is not zero according to New Agey people). Hell, most people can't do that much better than an animal.
"But the Fire of Cosmos cannot be manifested in its full power, for the human essence would then be reduced to ashes - except in the case of one who has consecrated himself to Fire, passing in his own flesh through all the stages of approach to the fiery element."
Any yogi (Jedi Tongue ) will tell you the ability to attract more of the Force Tongue is determined by one's purity of body (vegetarianism, Hatha yoga), loving heart (Bhakti yoga), learned mind (Jnana yoga), purified energy channels (Laya yoga), worldly service (Karma yoga), and a couple other yogas that are fairly exotic and integrate all the previously said plus activism and change of outlook on life.
For the record, "passing the fire through one's flesh" is a main point in Laya yoga and also a part of Raja Yoga and Agni yoga, from which this quote originates. It's an almost pleasant feeling, usually.

From this point of view, a human being is basically nothing else but an android of sorts. Human body is a chemically powered pump and dynamo, that powers an electro-magnet in the axis of the spine. At one pole of the spine is a big organic semi-conducting crystal, which controls the whole thing. However, thoughts are things too and being at the pole, the field attracts signals into the brain, which are interpreted as ideas, if the field is strong enough and the brain is trained.
The difference to a normal android is, that human body is supposed to be a receiving end of a succession of "ghost bodies" that make all the difference. If I'd be "spiritually correct", they are more true part of ourselves than our biology. A being made of one kind of matter only is called an "elemental", regardless if organic or anorganic. However, some metals are said to have an influence on the "psi".
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23-06-2014, 06:01 PM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2014 06:16 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(23-06-2014 07:22 AM)flim-flam Wrote:  Thanks for the response, Luminon. I quoted your answer to my last question about androids and psi. You mentioned that purity affect psi (vegetarianism, social activism, ...). Also you mentioned that androids would not have ghost bodies like humans. I'm sure I didn't understand a lot of what you said, so I'm probably grossly oversimplifying it.
You've got it right. There are many "technical" details and reasons for them, but unless you're into it, there's no need to worry.
Generally, living beings and everything that exists occupies living bodily forms because life grows from the spiritual realm "downwards", not vice versa. So making an android is not different from making a car, the car will not get a soul, the soul has to be already "there" somehow (enter mythology here).

(23-06-2014 07:22 AM)flim-flam Wrote:  Anyway, this reminds me of the Christian belief that humans are distinct from animals because we are made in God's image, have an eternal soul, and all the rest. As soon as we believe there is more to humans than our physical bodies, then we worry about what happens to us after death. (Of course it depends what you mean by ghost bodies. Are they like shadows cast by the physical body or can they go on after death through reincarnation or life in paradise?) Also if we believe in too much psi then we are essentially believing that god-like magical abilities exist. This leads to a belief in gods even if we call them spirits instead.
Right, the New Age teachings want to continue on the same line of major world religions, borrowing things from them - but mostly things they have in common, not unpleasant things like Hell.

From the occult point of view, the biological body is sort of a shadow of the higher bodies, just like the universe is a shadow of higher-dimensional universes. The lower is the precipitation of the higher. From our point of view the "ghost worlds" aren't solid, but it's mutual.
It's like a theater. A play on the scene can not be more real, massive and energetic than the theater itself. It's just 2D, flat decorations to make a semblance of the 3D audience. In this way New Age says the 4D (and more) astral world is more real than the physical world.
But if so, then the physical world may serve as sort of a calculator or simulation for the astral world. Let's say that in astral world we can't die or be killed, so we don't really know who's stronger or who's right. We can only find that out on Earth. Even we create simplified worlds and simulations in computers, which are even less "real" than our reality, that's how I got this idea. The higher worlds are like input and output, but here and now is like the main process in the computer where the final form of events is decided.

(23-06-2014 07:22 AM)flim-flam Wrote:  So atheists should be strict believers in naturalism. Naturalism is better defined than atheism too. I think we could say that naturalism is the belief that science can eventually know everything about reality. If people believe in things that can't be studied using science then they should admit they are not atheists.

Likewise if religious people are strict believers in naturalism then they should admit that they are actually atheists.

So I guess I'm saying that naturalism should be the measure of atheism.
That's right. Religious people are religious only because they do not have a real definition of what is God. If God is supernatural, then there's no way we can commune with God and so Bible is fake. If God is natural, then we have a way for communion with natural things - it's called science.
If people are made in God's image, and people are natural, then God is natural too. If people are part natural and part supernatural, whatever it means, then the supernatural is just natural stuff that will be discovered some day when we have better technology. This is what I think New Age is about the most.

Atheists are OK, only maybe they should call themselves "normal people". What if religious people ask, "which religion do you have?" and atheist responds, "none, I'm normal!" Big Grin
If they call themselves atheists, then that suggests it is normal to believe in God, which unfortunately it is.
One thing I don't like about naturalism is, that it gets often equated with positivism. Positivism says, whatever science discovered, is real, nothing more. But science discovers new things all the time, so there must be more real things that we know about yet. This is why words like "nature" are metaphysical, it's beyond physics for now, but not forever, just as you say. And maybe the things we haven't discovered yet are still here with us, influencing us somehow, creating weird coincidences or the general random events or errors. Maybe anomalies too. Science always has anomalies, but they're just odd things, not worthy to change the leading theories. Scientists won't dismantle LHC just because of a small anomaly, they first change theories.

I'd say the difference between believer and naturalist outside of where science is right now, is again in the method. Believers just make things up. OTOH, I have always kept a hands-on approach. I went through some weird experiences and body sensations. Only after years I realized they behave like body electricity or plasma-like "ghost matter". Most of people around me were crazy about channeling Pleiadians or astral beings or crap like that. I always preferred the tangible stuff that I actually have experience with. I always liked how science gives tangible results that really matter in life.
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23-06-2014, 06:19 PM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(23-06-2014 07:22 AM)flim-flam Wrote:  Thanks for the response, Luminon. I quoted your answer to my last question about androids and psi. You mentioned that purity affect psi (vegetarianism, social activism, ...). Also you mentioned that androids would not have ghost bodies like humans. I'm sure I didn't understand a lot of what you said, so I'm probably grossly oversimplifying it.

Anyway, this reminds me of the Christian belief that humans are distinct from animals because we are made in God's image, have an eternal soul, and all the rest. As soon as we believe there is more to humans than our physical bodies, then we worry about what happens to us after death. (Of course it depends what you mean by ghost bodies. Are they like shadows cast by the physical body or can they go on after death through reincarnation or life in paradise?) Also if we believe in too much psi then we are essentially believing that god-like magical abilities exist. This leads to a belief in gods even if we call them spirits instead.

So atheists should be strict believers in naturalism. Naturalism is better defined than atheism too. I think we could say that naturalism is the belief that science can eventually know everything about reality. If people believe in things that can't be studied using science then they should admit they are not atheists.

Likewise if religious people are strict believers in naturalism then they should admit that they are actually atheists.

So I guess I'm saying that naturalism should be the measure of atheism.

(22-06-2014 10:55 AM)Luminon Wrote:  This question makes me feel as if a Spiderman fan would ask me if Superman can eat human food if he's powered by the Sun Tongue
But anyway, it's my hobby. I will not talk about the teachings themselves, because that's incomprehensible unless you have some personal experience with that. But there are technical parallels to be drawn to present science.
No, I don't think an android could do "psi". No more than a plant or a mineral (which is not zero according to New Agey people). Hell, most people can't do that much better than an animal.
"But the Fire of Cosmos cannot be manifested in its full power, for the human essence would then be reduced to ashes - except in the case of one who has consecrated himself to Fire, passing in his own flesh through all the stages of approach to the fiery element."
Any yogi (Jedi Tongue ) will tell you the ability to attract more of the Force Tongue is determined by one's purity of body (vegetarianism, Hatha yoga), loving heart (Bhakti yoga), learned mind (Jnana yoga), purified energy channels (Laya yoga), worldly service (Karma yoga), and a couple other yogas that are fairly exotic and integrate all the previously said plus activism and change of outlook on life.
For the record, "passing the fire through one's flesh" is a main point in Laya yoga and also a part of Raja Yoga and Agni yoga, from which this quote originates. It's an almost pleasant feeling, usually.

From this point of view, a human being is basically nothing else but an android of sorts. Human body is a chemically powered pump and dynamo, that powers an electro-magnet in the axis of the spine. At one pole of the spine is a big organic semi-conducting crystal, which controls the whole thing. However, thoughts are things too and being at the pole, the field attracts signals into the brain, which are interpreted as ideas, if the field is strong enough and the brain is trained.
The difference to a normal android is, that human body is supposed to be a receiving end of a succession of "ghost bodies" that make all the difference. If I'd be "spiritually correct", they are more true part of ourselves than our biology. A being made of one kind of matter only is called an "elemental", regardless if organic or anorganic. However, some metals are said to have an influence on the "psi".

I'd prefer Atheism not mean anything other than "Doesnt believe in god." It "Should" or "shouldn't" mean anything else.
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