Religion without supernatural phenomena
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24-06-2014, 07:13 PM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(23-06-2014 06:19 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  I'd prefer Atheism not mean anything other than "Doesnt believe in god." It "Should" or "shouldn't" mean anything else.

But how do you define a god? If we define atheism as not believing in something that has no clear definition, then atheism has no clear definition.

On the other hand naturalism has a workable definition and is very closely connected to atheism IMO.
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24-06-2014, 07:41 PM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
Thanks, again, that is very interesting. I quoted only a couple of pieces where I have some follow-up:

(23-06-2014 06:01 PM)Luminon Wrote:  From the occult point of view, the biological body is sort of a shadow of the higher bodies, just like the universe is a shadow of higher-dimensional universes. The lower is the precipitation of the higher. From our point of view the "ghost worlds" aren't solid, but it's mutual.
It's like a theater. A play on the scene can not be more real, massive and energetic than the theater itself. It's just 2D, flat decorations to make a semblance of the 3D audience. In this way New Age says the 4D (and more) astral world is more real than the physical world.
But if so, then the physical world may serve as sort of a calculator or simulation for the astral world. Let's say that in astral world we can't die or be killed, so we don't really know who's stronger or who's right. We can only find that out on Earth. Even we create simplified worlds and simulations in computers, which are even less "real" than our reality, that's how I got this idea. The higher worlds are like input and output, but here and now is like the main process in the computer where the final form of events is decided.

That's interesting because about 15 years ago as I was trying to go to sleep it seemed like something came into my mind to show and explain what you describe. It was strange, because I have never read anything about New Age or occult ideas, so I'm surprised my mind would invent those beliefs from thin air. But I think those beliefs are not good. There may be some truth in them, but it isn't the whole truth. I just feel instinctually that the beliefs are fundamentally wrong somehow.

(23-06-2014 06:01 PM)Luminon Wrote:  That's right. Religious people are religious only because they do not have a real definition of what is God. If God is supernatural, then there's no way we can commune with God and so Bible is fake. If God is natural, then we have a way for communion with natural things - it's called science.
If people are made in God's image, and people are natural, then God is natural too. If people are part natural and part supernatural, whatever it means, then the supernatural is just natural stuff that will be discovered some day when we have better technology. This is what I think New Age is about the most.

The way I imagine it, supernatural reality is what might exist behind the veil of quantum mechanic's uncertainty principle. So if QM is correct then science will never be able to pierce that veil ... ever. So by my definition supernatural reality is distinct from undiscovered natural reality.
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24-06-2014, 07:55 PM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(24-06-2014 07:41 PM)flim-flam Wrote:  Thanks, again, that is very interesting. I quoted only a couple of pieces where I have some follow-up:

(23-06-2014 06:01 PM)Luminon Wrote:  From the occult point of view, the biological body is sort of a shadow of the higher bodies, just like the universe is a shadow of higher-dimensional universes. The lower is the precipitation of the higher. From our point of view the "ghost worlds" aren't solid, but it's mutual.
It's like a theater. A play on the scene can not be more real, massive and energetic than the theater itself. It's just 2D, flat decorations to make a semblance of the 3D audience. In this way New Age says the 4D (and more) astral world is more real than the physical world.
But if so, then the physical world may serve as sort of a calculator or simulation for the astral world. Let's say that in astral world we can't die or be killed, so we don't really know who's stronger or who's right. We can only find that out on Earth. Even we create simplified worlds and simulations in computers, which are even less "real" than our reality, that's how I got this idea. The higher worlds are like input and output, but here and now is like the main process in the computer where the final form of events is decided.

That's interesting because about 15 years ago as I was trying to go to sleep it seemed like something came into my mind to show and explain what you describe. It was strange, because I have never read anything about New Age or occult ideas, so I'm surprised my mind would invent those beliefs from thin air. But I think those beliefs are not good. There may be some truth in them, but it isn't the whole truth. I just feel instinctually that the beliefs are fundamentally wrong somehow.

(23-06-2014 06:01 PM)Luminon Wrote:  That's right. Religious people are religious only because they do not have a real definition of what is God. If God is supernatural, then there's no way we can commune with God and so Bible is fake. If God is natural, then we have a way for communion with natural things - it's called science.
If people are made in God's image, and people are natural, then God is natural too. If people are part natural and part supernatural, whatever it means, then the supernatural is just natural stuff that will be discovered some day when we have better technology. This is what I think New Age is about the most.

The way I imagine it, supernatural reality is what might exist behind the veil of quantum mechanic's uncertainty principle. So if QM is correct then science will never be able to pierce that veil ... ever. So by my definition supernatural reality is distinct from undiscovered natural reality.

Pray Tell please explain Uncertainty Principle because I am 99% sure that you do not understand it if this is how you are using it.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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24-06-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(24-06-2014 07:55 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Pray Tell please explain Uncertainty Principle because I am 99% sure that you do not understand it if this is how you are using it.

Consider

I'm 100% sure.

Dodgy

... this is my signature!
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24-06-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(21-06-2014 07:37 PM)Sam Wrote:  I don't understand it either.

There's no more proof for magic or anything paranormal/supernatural than there is for God... So why reject one and not the other?

I think it goes to show that the term "atheist" doesn't really go far enough to describe what many of us in this corner of the internet are talking about. Really, "skeptic" or "rationalist" are better terms for a lot of people, myself included. Skepticism is a catch all term for any paranormal, supernatural or magical claims... Atheism is just one part of it.

I suppose its only by the fact that psychics and astrologers don't threaten to cut your head off that we highlight atheism in particular. Religion certainly poses a greater threat to humanity than all other bullshit put together.

When you say you 'reject' something, are you saying it can't exist or that you just don't believe the claims of its existence?
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24-06-2014, 09:41 PM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(24-06-2014 07:55 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 07:41 PM)flim-flam Wrote:  The way I imagine it, supernatural reality is what might exist behind the veil of quantum mechanic's uncertainty principle. So if QM is correct then science will never be able to pierce that veil ... ever. So by my definition supernatural reality is distinct from undiscovered natural reality.

Pray Tell please explain Uncertainty Principle because I am 99% sure that you do not understand it if this is how you are using it.

Here is the wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

You can't know precisely both the position and the momentum. There is a limit. Therefore you cannot predict the future with certainty. The universe at its most basic is not deterministic. QM has probability waves. What is probability? What if there is something unobservable (i.e. supernatural) that is determining the way these probability waves collapse into events? Maybe God or the scientists controlling this simulation of reality are making those choices?

If something in supernatural reality can control these seemingly random events in natural reality the effects are not limited to tiny particles. A tiny particle's behavior strategically placed in the human brain might create inspiration or a vision. Furthermore controlling the behavior of many tiny particles might create miraculous macroscopic events.
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24-06-2014, 09:43 PM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(24-06-2014 08:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(24-06-2014 07:55 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Pray Tell please explain Uncertainty Principle because I am 99% sure that you do not understand it if this is how you are using it.

Consider

I'm 100% sure.

Dodgy

Yup he doesn't.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-06-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(21-06-2014 07:24 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(21-06-2014 04:40 PM)flim-flam Wrote:  ...
supernatural phenomena.
...

Isn't that oxymoronic?

My knowledge of philosophy is minimal to zero but didn't Kant popularise the term phenomenon and contrast it to noumenon (that which is not directly accessible to observation).

Therefore a phenomenon must be accessible to observation and therefore natural rather than supernatural.

Perhaps the question hinges on the word directly and whether our scientific tools are within scope.

Consider

Damn, that's just plain good thinkin DLJ.

"I have, therefore found it necessary to deny knowledge, in order to make room for faith." Emmanuel Kant speaking on the existence of God and concluding that God cannot be known, but that life without God would be bereft of morality. I think?

Kant's thinking on morals is worth a read.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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25-06-2014, 01:36 AM
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(21-06-2014 07:24 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(21-06-2014 04:40 PM)flim-flam Wrote:  ...
supernatural phenomena.
...

Isn't that oxymoronic?

My knowledge of philosophy is minimal to zero but didn't Kant popularise the term phenomenon and contrast it to noumenon (that which is not directly accessible to observation).

Therefore a phenomenon must be accessible to observation and therefore natural rather than supernatural.

Perhaps the question hinges on the word directly and whether our scientific tools are within scope.

Consider

Damn, that's just plain good thinkin DLJ.

"I have, therefore found it necessary to deny knowledge, in order to make room for faith." Emmanuel Kant speaking on the existence of God and concluding that God cannot be known, but that life without God would be bereft of morality. I think?

Kant's thinking on morals is worth a read.

"If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." Orson Welles
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25-06-2014, 04:59 AM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2014 05:04 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Religion without supernatural phenomena
(24-06-2014 07:41 PM)flim-flam Wrote:  That's interesting because about 15 years ago as I was trying to go to sleep it seemed like something came into my mind to show and explain what you describe. It was strange, because I have never read anything about New Age or occult ideas, so I'm surprised my mind would invent those beliefs from thin air.
Sounds interesting. Some people like Plato believed that there is a whole world of perfect ideas and that people "download" these ideas into their brain in order to comprehend reality. For example, he looked at some lopsided ellipse and he thought of the idea of "circle", which in perfect form does not exist.
Similarly, when I used to make games, sometimes I got an idea and if I didn't put it into practice, someone else in the developer community thought of that. for example, I used to work on a platformer game with 360 degree gravity almost 10 years ago. Didn't work out, but a couple years later there was more of that.

The truth is, there are not that many possibilities at any time, reality is not random, these things do happen a lot.

(24-06-2014 07:41 PM)flim-flam Wrote:  But I think those beliefs are not good. There may be some truth in them, but it isn't the whole truth. I just feel instinctually that the beliefs are fundamentally wrong somehow.
Then I have to bow to your instinct. Bowing
Belief or faith is the most intellectually dishonest position it is possible to have. (Aron Ra says that when he debates creationists) We don't really have the right to talk about things we don't know with any authority. Internet anonymity helps, but it's still not completely all right.
I only have this as a hobby, because my body perception feels these things, the "ghost bodies" and how they work. It's kind of interesting, but rather technical and not very useful. It's only useful for things like self-therapy or meditation. I can't talk about it in daily life, under my real name.

(24-06-2014 07:41 PM)flim-flam Wrote:  The way I imagine it, supernatural reality is what might exist behind the veil of quantum mechanic's uncertainty principle. So if QM is correct then science will never be able to pierce that veil ... ever. So by my definition supernatural reality is distinct from undiscovered natural reality.
Interesting idea. I thought along similar lines, only that the photon exists as a wave, until measured. The same effect works with bigger molecules, even bucky fullerenes. Maybe the "ghost matter" or dark matter of the astronomers is all like that, only permanently. Maybe it exists as waves that can't be easily collapsed into particles - that would equal to materialization.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_wave
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