Religious extremism or political motivation
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06-05-2013, 07:49 AM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
I started this thread asking for people's opinions on which acts of terrorism (be they foreign or domestic) do they think were MOTIVATED by religious extremism, political gain, or both and thus far not one person has made a list and justified their opinion. This isn't about attacking each other with logic bombs, its about taking a consensus.

Obama promised you change. Reach in your pocket, feel those coins? There's your change...
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06-05-2013, 08:42 AM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
Who's motivation, the idiot who is exploding or the jackass telling him to do it.

The idiot exploding has to be motivated by some form of an afterlife, either that or he has no motivation coz he is insane . SO his motivation is probably religious or at least spiritual if he is sane.

The jackass telling him to do it is a more complex animal, maybe all he wants do is sleep with the idiot's wife/significant other (I think I read about that somewhere in a fairy tale or something). The jackass simply can't be pinned down all that easily he can have as many motivations as there are motivations out there. So for the jackass ... the answer is how long is a piece of string.

Not very well thought out, but there is my two cents.
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06-05-2013, 08:49 AM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
I heard a rumor that everything is politics. Combined with being a member of a social species, all I can tell you is... I love my Gwynnies! What was the question again? Is there a difference between one and the other? I'm gonna say, no.

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06-05-2013, 08:50 AM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
(06-05-2013 07:49 AM)DeathsNotoriousAngel Wrote:  I started this thread asking for people's opinions on which acts of terrorism

Me and my Gwynnies were gonna go visit Bank of America. Thus it is written, all things in moderation.

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08-05-2013, 09:51 AM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
Hey, Starcrash.

If this had been a first offence, you might have my sympathy. But it is another incident in a long list of you accusing me of all kinds of baseless things. If you misunderstand, then ask a clarifying question. If you accuse me of doing something and you're wrong, then you're spreading lies. I didn't call you a liar. A asked why you were lying in reference to a direct quote. Why were you spreading false rumours about me? Because that's exactly what you were doing. As for the deliberateness of it, once I can get. But you do it enough times, as you have, and I find it extremely hard to believe that it isn't deliberate.

Also, if you can't even admit that accusing me the way that you did was wrong, then there's no point in further conversation. It wasn't an explicit accusation, but it was certainly an implied one. If you ask "why are you doing X" then the implication is THAT I am doing X. 'Why are you doing' is an accusation. 'Are you doing' is a question. Ask questions in future and we'll avoid all of this.

As far as your argument, your argument was a false accusation. Why would I engage with that? If I ask, "Hey, Starcrash, why do you fuck little boys in the ass," and you "skip my argument" and focus on dispelling that malicious rumour, I'd understand why.

So ask me a question, or move on with your life. Either is fine with me.

Hey, Death.

Quote:I started this thread asking for people's opinions on which acts of terrorism (be they foreign or domestic) do they think were MOTIVATED by religious extremism, political gain, or both and thus far not one person has made a list and justified their opinion. This isn't about attacking each other with logic bombs, its about taking a consensus.

Well the reason that I posted what I posted was because I was attempting to blow open the frame of your question.

People come together and form human systems because that's what we're genetically programmed to do. When the human system is large, kin selection and interpersonal relationship is incapable of bonding the unit together, and so ideology has to be used. We are a unit because we share a king, a religion, a nationality, a race, a geographical location, insert reason here.

But when it comes to fighting, there is only ever one reason: to expand the human system's ability to exert power.

Thus the religious fanaticism OR political motivation frame is false.

No Muslim in the world picks up the Qur'an, reads the passage that says, "Fly a plane into a building," and then goes and does it. That doesn't exist. But some Muslims find themselves members of a human system, the leaders of which have decided to expand their ability to exert power. To do this, they outline a series of objectives. They then task people to achieve those objectives.

The end is not to "fight for religion" or to "protect the religion". The end is to expand the ability to exert power and to undermine competitior's ability to exert counter power. But for sure, that can be done under the guise of the other two things.

So for everyone involved in that Islamic extremist organisation, of course they're brought together by not just Islam, but their extreme interpretation of Islam. Thus, extremist Islam is just what delineates the borders of the group. It's a team jersey. "We function as a group because we are all X."

The tenets of the religion might outline what they can and cannot do or what they should or should not do. So there's that.

Is any of that making sense?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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08-05-2013, 10:01 AM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
(08-05-2013 09:51 AM)Ghost Wrote:  People come together and form human systems because that's what we're genetically programmed to do.

Evidence?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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08-05-2013, 11:03 AM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
Jefe.

Genetics, sociology, sociobiology, biology, anthropology, I'll stop there though there are more disciplines that confirm it.

The fact that we're sexually reproducing organisms alone demands social interaction. When you investigate, on any level, the organisation of human cultures, it's clear as day that our species evolved as a social species. We have been social animals for millions of years, a trait that goes back millions of years before even the development of the Homo genus. It's something that we see in all primate species and even in many mammalian species. Social organisation is even more widespread than that. We see it in schools of fish, in flocks of geese, in pits of snakes and in colonies of ants (which may actually be less an example of a social species and more an example of a superorganism). The examples of social organisation across the living community are legion.

Human social interaction is moderated by the prefrontal cortex of the brain. The development of the human hand is attributed to flint knapping and the teaching of flint knapping to other humans in your group.

Genetics of Human Social Behaviour Wrote:Abstract

Human beings are an incredibly social species and along with eusocial insects engage in the largest cooperative living groups in the planet's history. Twin and family studies suggest that uniquely human characteristics such as empathy, altruism, sense of equity, love, trust, music, economic behavior, and even politics are partially hardwired. The leap from twin studies to identifying specific genes engaging the social brain has occurred in the past decade, aided by deep insights accumulated about social behavior in lower mammals. Remarkably, genes such as the arginine vasopressin receptor and the oxytocin receptor contribute to social behavior in a broad range of species from voles to man. Other polymorphic genes constituting the "usual suspects"--i.e., those encoding for dopamine reward pathways, serotonergic emotional regulation, or sex hormones--further enable elaborate social behaviors.
-SOURCE

There is in fact so much evidence that it actually took me a while to figure out where I could possibly begin.

If you can provide an alternate hypothesis than the one that is universally accepted, I'd love to hear it.
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08-05-2013, 11:13 AM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
(08-05-2013 11:03 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Jefe.

Genetics, sociology, sociobiology, biology, anthropology, I'll stop there though there are more disciplines that confirm it.

The fact that we're sexually reproducing organisms alone demands social interaction. When you investigate, on any level, the organisation of human cultures, it's clear as day that our species evolved as a social species. We have been social animals for millions of years, a trait that goes back millions of years before even the development of the Homo genus. It's something that we see in all primate species and even in many mammalian species. Social organisation is even more widespread than that. We see it in schools of fish, in flocks of geese, in pits of snakes and in colonies of ants (which may actually be less an example of a social species and more an example of a superorganism). The examples of social organisation across the living community are legion.

Human social interaction is moderated by the prefrontal cortex of the brain. The development of the human hand is attributed to flint knapping and the teaching of flint knapping to other humans in your group.

Genetics of Human Social Behaviour Wrote:Abstract

Human beings are an incredibly social species and along with eusocial insects engage in the largest cooperative living groups in the planet's history. Twin and family studies suggest that uniquely human characteristics such as empathy, altruism, sense of equity, love, trust, music, economic behavior, and even politics are partially hardwired. The leap from twin studies to identifying specific genes engaging the social brain has occurred in the past decade, aided by deep insights accumulated about social behavior in lower mammals. Remarkably, genes such as the arginine vasopressin receptor and the oxytocin receptor contribute to social behavior in a broad range of species from voles to man. Other polymorphic genes constituting the "usual suspects"--i.e., those encoding for dopamine reward pathways, serotonergic emotional regulation, or sex hormones--further enable elaborate social behaviors.
-SOURCE

There is in fact so much evidence that it actually took me a while to figure out where I could possibly begin.

If you can provide an alternate hypothesis than the one that is universally accepted, I'd love to hear it.

I don't dispute the fact that humans are social creatures. However, that we are social creatures isn't proof that we are genetically hard wired to create "systems". Perhaps you could elaborate on your use of the word system?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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08-05-2013, 12:20 PM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
Hey, Jefe.

Quote:A system is an entity that maintains its existence and functions as a whole through the interaction of its parts.
-O'Connor and McDermott, "The Art of Systems Thinking: Essential Skills for Creativity and Problem Solving."

A human system is an umbrella term that refers to an organisation of humans, be it:
-Family
-Church
-City
-Business
-State
-Community
-Islamic terrorist organisation
-Corporation

As social animals, we are genetically predisposed to forming human systems.

Regarding human systems as systems aids in understanding how they function, malfunction, progress over time and also in devising intervention strategies.

So when I say that a human system fights to expand its ability to exert power, I could be speaking of terrorist groups, the US government, Doctor's Without Borders, the Gambino crime family, Haliburton, or Uncle Costapoulous' Authentic Greek Restaurant.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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08-05-2013, 12:21 PM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
Oh boy this is a huge can of worms that are not at all good for fishing.

I have gotten myself in trouble before for defending political actions by muslims even when they were carried out under the guise of islam.

Crazed actions by individuals carried out in furtherance of the religion are still crazed acts by individuals. Islam does seem to promote violence against the other more so than other religions. That cannot be denied and will not.

One must also acknowledge that the last two popes have been enablers of pedophilia. The most violent act a human can perpetrate on another human. Does this make the whole of the Catholic church and its aims evil, not necessarily. I honestly think all religion is evil but that is not the discussion here.

To acknowledge that resistance to Israeli violence against Palestinians is often carried out by Islamic fundamentalists and is violent also, does not therefore mean that Palestinians have no legitimate political complaints about Israeli control.

The killing of abortionists and bombing of abortion clinics are the individual acts of crazed individuals under the guise of protecting their religious beliefs. As much as is the killing of innocents by flying planes into buildings.

That there may also be a political motive to those acts does not mean the acts are acceptable.

The argument here should accept more subtlety.
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