Religious extremism or political motivation
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08-05-2013, 12:25 PM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
Sorry, I was responding to the OP. I see this has drifted into a semantic argument.
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08-05-2013, 12:29 PM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
(08-05-2013 12:20 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Jefe.

Quote:A system is an entity that maintains its existence and functions as a whole through the interaction of its parts.
-O'Connor and McDermott, "The Art of Systems Thinking: Essential Skills for Creativity and Problem Solving."

A human system is an umbrella term that refers to an organisation of humans, be it:
-Family
-Church
-City
-Business
-State
-Community
-Islamic terrorist organisation
-Corporation

As social animals, we are genetically predisposed to forming human systems.

Regarding human systems as systems aids in understanding how they function, malfunction, progress over time and also in devising intervention strategies.

So when I say that a human system fights to expand its ability to exert power, I could be speaking of terrorist groups, the US government, Doctor's Without Borders, the Gambino crime family, Haliburton, or Uncle Costapoulous' Authentic Greek Restaurant.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

So would you also argue that human beings are genetically hard wired to build and use tools? Say for instance, fashioning a rock into a cutting devise or even building a space ship?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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08-05-2013, 01:46 PM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
Hey, Jefe.

No. Those are learned.

I, for example, have no idea how to build a space ship.

Our ability to learn them in the first place is, however, genetic.

Furthermore, if you accept Universal Darwinism and memetics (which I most assuredly do), our hands were selected for because of their ability to fashion stone tools, ie, it was the result of meme-gene co-evolution.

Lastly, on memetics, the evolution of the tools we use and how we use them is memetically driven. That is to say, rocks become hammers via memetic evolution.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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08-05-2013, 06:08 PM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
(08-05-2013 01:46 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Jefe.

No. Those are learned.

I, for example, have no idea how to build a space ship.

Our ability to learn them in the first place is, however, genetic.

Furthermore, if you accept Universal Darwinism and memetics (which I most assuredly do), our hands were selected for because of their ability to fashion stone tools, ie, it was the result of meme-gene co-evolution.

Lastly, on memetics, the evolution of the tools we use and how we use them is memetically driven. That is to say, rocks become hammers via memetic evolution.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt


Are systems not merely tools?

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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08-05-2013, 08:02 PM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
(05-05-2013 12:57 PM)TheMrBillShow Wrote:  Here's a recent article on this very subject I found interesting. I'd love to see comments:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizv..._hp_ref=tw

Excellent article...thanks for sharing
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08-05-2013, 09:44 PM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
Hey, Jefe.

I feel like you're asking leading questions. If you have a point you want to make, feel free to make it.

A system is not a tool. "A system is an entity that maintains its existence and functions as a whole through the interaction of its parts."

A system refers to an organisation.

A car, strictly speaking, is a tool. But when, you say a car is a system, you aren't referring to its status as a tool, you're saying that it is a complex organisation of interdependent parts.

A human system refers to an organisation of humans.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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08-05-2013, 10:18 PM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
(08-05-2013 09:44 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Jefe.

I feel like you're asking leading questions. If you have a point you want to make, feel free to make it.

A system is not a tool. "A system is an entity that maintains its existence and functions as a whole through the interaction of its parts."

A system refers to an organisation.

A car, strictly speaking, is a tool. But when, you say a car is a system, you aren't referring to its status as a tool, you're saying that it is a complex organisation of interdependent parts.

A human system refers to an organisation of humans.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I don't know that there has ever been a system devised that was not devised so as to be used as a means to an end. Ergo, as a tool. Of course, I freely admit that I could be wrong and that's why I've been asking questions.

And now, from what I've learned, I don't see that you've presented any evidence for the assertion that human beings are genetically predisposed toward organizing groups. Most notably to me, hierarchical groups or in your words, systems.

And to clarify, I accept that we are social animals. However, cooperation can and does exist in the absence of hierarchical human structures.

In the end, human beings create these systems as a matter of environment, not nature.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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08-05-2013, 10:48 PM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
Jefe.

So the solar system is a tool is it? Good to know.

Well, illiteracy is a terrible affliction that I hope you conquer because I provided a lot of evidence. There's a difference between me not providing evidence and you arbitrarily dismissing it out of hand because you don't want to face something. I even asked you for an alternate hypothesis which you didn't even attempt to provide. If you really want to sit there and tell yourself that humans did not evolve to live in groups, then you have fun with that.

I know a lot of people that make a lot of money teaching people about human systems and doing human systems interventions with families all the way up to Fortune 500 companies, so thankfully the fact that humans form groups, that many of them are hierarchical and that organisations of humans are systems, in no way needs your permission to be the case.

You accept that we are social animals but you won't say why that is. So I guess a wizard did it?

Quote:However, cooperation can and does exist in the absence of hierarchical human structures.

You're botching the terminology to the point that your statement is nonsense.

Quote: In the end, human beings create these systems as a matter of environment, not nature.

I can't even begin to imagine what that could possibly mean.
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08-05-2013, 11:53 PM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
(08-05-2013 10:48 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Jefe.

So the solar system is a tool is it? Good to know.

Well, illiteracy is a terrible affliction that I hope you conquer because I provided a lot of evidence. There's a difference between me not providing evidence and you arbitrarily dismissing it out of hand because you don't want to face something. I even asked you for an alternate hypothesis which you didn't even attempt to provide. If you really want to sit there and tell yourself that humans did not evolve to live in groups, then you have fun with that.

I know a lot of people that make a lot of money teaching people about human systems and doing human systems interventions with families all the way up to Fortune 500 companies, so thankfully the fact that humans form groups, that many of them are hierarchical and that organisations of humans are systems, in no way needs your permission to be the case.

You accept that we are social animals but you won't say why that is. So I guess a wizard did it?

Quote:However, cooperation can and does exist in the absence of hierarchical human structures.

You're botching the terminology to the point that your statement is nonsense.

Quote: In the end, human beings create these systems as a matter of environment, not nature.

I can't even begin to imagine what that could possibly mean.

Human beings did not create the solar system. The topic of discussion is human beings and the assertion that we create systems as a matter of genetics.

As your evidence goes, you did not sufficiently prove your assertion. You claimed: "People come together and form human systems because that's what we're genetically programmed to do."

That statement isn't supported by your evidence. No doubt your assertion is plausible but it is not proven by the evidence you've provided. Humans gather socially and create social constructs but there is nothing that says humans are genetically hardwired to do the latter.

What we are genetically programmed to do is reproduce and sustain our own lives. That can be accomplished without businesses, nation states, organized religion, et al. All that's required to effect our goals is that we cooperate with other human beings.

As for my hypothesis: In the end, human beings create these systems as a matter of environment, not nature.

Perhaps it would have been more clear had I said that human beings create these systems as a result of our environment rather than genetics. To be specific, we create these systems because the family structure we are raised in is hierarchical.

Oh and one last thing, if something I've said is unclear to you, feel free to ask me for clarification just as I asked you for clarifcation. I'm not saying you're not allowed to level insults at me but, generally speaking, it doesn't advance either of our arguments. Smile

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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09-05-2013, 12:34 AM
RE: Religious extremism or political motivation
This is exhausting. There is so much misunderstanding (deliberate and non-deliberate) and veiled insults in the above exchange that I am unsure what the point is.

I suggest The Boss and The Ghost move over to a different thread and settle their differences, and allow Death to conduct his online poll (which I will add is using a very biased sample of the population).

By the way the imagery conjured by your names is cool to me.
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