Removing Civil War monuments
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27-02-2016, 09:53 AM
Removing Civil War monuments
This was on NPR last week. Several groups are petitioning to have Civil War monuments and statues removed.

http://www.npr.org/2015/12/17/460082447/...-monuments

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2015/07/02/je...xas-statue

Is this an attempt to erase history? Is this the same as removing the flag? How is this different than the Taliban blowing up the ancient, historical statue of Buddha?

Could there be plaques next to the statues written from the perspective of slaves and slavery? I donno, it seems like removing them all doesn't serve us well since people tend to forget history very quickly. Germany has kept it's concentration camps as a reminder of what oppressing a whole population of humans can do.

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He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
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27-02-2016, 11:46 AM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
(27-02-2016 09:53 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  This was on NPR last week. Several groups are petitioning to have Civil War monuments and statues removed.

http://www.npr.org/2015/12/17/460082447/...-monuments

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2015/07/02/je...xas-statue

Is this an attempt to erase history? Is this the same as removing the flag? How is this different than the Taliban blowing up the ancient, historical statue of Buddha?

Could there be plaques next to the statues written from the perspective of slaves and slavery? I donno, it seems like removing them all doesn't serve us well since people tend to forget history very quickly. Germany has kept it's concentration camps as a reminder of what oppressing a whole population of humans can do.

For some it might be a move to erase embarrassing history, for other it's a way to take the emphasis off of the negative history and shine it on the more positive.

My personal feel on this is that they should be removed from the casual public display to a museum setting where the context of the struggle can be explained and examined. Leave the hero's who fought against this terrible time in our history out in the public square but put the leaders who fought against change to a more humane and equal way in a museum atmosphere where the whole story can be told and learned from. It should not be erased.

It has long since been the place of the victors to write history but this is not what should happen completely. We should have reminders of both sides of the issue but maybe not have them both honored, just available.

I would not want to see them destroyed. There is a lesson that needs to be continually addressed. That is why I think historical flags and monuments from the slavery side of the Civil War should be museum displays only.

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27-02-2016, 11:48 AM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
It doesn't seem like something there is much of a movement for.

It's actually a pretty nice bit of sections in the Arlington national cemetery for certain wars including a whole civil war Confederate era and not too far from it a Buffalo Solders memorial area too.

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27-02-2016, 11:53 AM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
I think it's appropriate to leave them in place and install alongside them plaques/displays that provide context. I think relegating the displays to museums would tend to dampen the conversation; keeping the displays in public would tend to broaden it.
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27-02-2016, 03:42 PM
Removing Civil War monuments
Trying to erase history is stupid.
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27-02-2016, 04:02 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
There was a big broo-ha-ha this winter at one of the English colleges, (Oxford ??) about removing a statue of the guy who founded De Beers (South Africa). It IS so stupid trying to "erase" history, just because it's embarrassing today. It is what it is. Better to face the truth and learn from it, than try to pretend it never happened, just because it's inconvenient. Better to face facts, try to understand why it happened the way it happened, and move on, than pretend it never happened.

That said, I do feel, "Confederate" things belong in museums, not presented as part of "today's values".

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27-02-2016, 05:05 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
The concept/argument "erasing history" always seems nonsensical to me for many ways & none of which are based on agreeing to it. Regardless, the history will be erased one day but it's not really erasing anymore than it is creating new history. The removal of a icon/statue/monument or idea is generating it's own history you're creating and adding to the pile of human information of what is known and what is going to be known.

Just like the removal of Lenin or Sadam statues weren't removing their history. It's an addition to history that both will be historical factors of those regions that get washed away by some other toppling.

[Image: 06d3e65f76d3cf0da5501baaeaf80a7f?AccessK...oworigin=1]

But how many people going by that at a mardi gras or just driving by are really aware of what that is anyway? I know plenty of cities with statues of figures in prominent areas are largely unknown to bystanders. Like the William Penn statue that is in Philadelphia.

I don't think a plaque or removing it change anything about it.

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27-02-2016, 05:12 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
(27-02-2016 05:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The concept/argument "erasing history" always seems nonsensical to me for many ways & none of which are based on agreeing to it. Regardless, the history will be erased one day but it's not really erasing anymore than it is creating new history. The removal of a icon/statue/monument or idea is generating it's own history you're creating and adding to the pile of human information of what is known and what is going to be known.

Just like the removal of Lenin or Sadam statues weren't removing their history. It's an addition to history that both will be historical factors of those regions that get washed away by some other toppling.

[Image: 06d3e65f76d3cf0da5501baaeaf80a7f?AccessK...oworigin=1]

But how many people going by that at a mardi gras or just driving by are really aware of what that is anyway? I know plenty of cities with statues of figures in prominent areas are largely unknown to bystanders. Like the William Penn statue that is in Philadelphia.

I don't think a plaque or removing it change anything about it.

I disagree with that analogy. I think the people under the rule of Saddam Hussein feel a great relief from having his statue removed. Is it right to leave the statue of a heinous dictator standing over the victims of his reign, being forever in his shadow? I don't think so. No more than a woman would want the picture of her rapists hanging in her living room. Just because it happen does not mean you should have to be reminded of it every day.

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27-02-2016, 05:14 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
(27-02-2016 09:53 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  This was on NPR last week. Several groups are petitioning to have Civil War monuments and statues removed.

http://www.npr.org/2015/12/17/460082447/...-monuments

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2015/07/02/je...xas-statue

Is this an attempt to erase history? ... Germany has kept it's concentration camps as a reminder of what oppressing a whole population of humans can do.

I'm with Germany on this. Monuments and landmarks capture the social sentiment at that time. It should be preserved.

(27-02-2016 09:53 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Is this the same as removing the flag?

I don't think so. While the monuments capture a valuable historical snapshot of social sentiment, flying the flag represents a desire to return there. Can Germans even fly the Nazi flag in Germany? I doubt it. Vosur and Szuchow would know.

#sigh
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27-02-2016, 05:19 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
(27-02-2016 05:12 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 05:05 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The concept/argument "erasing history" always seems nonsensical to me for many ways & none of which are based on agreeing to it. Regardless, the history will be erased one day but it's not really erasing anymore than it is creating new history. The removal of a icon/statue/monument or idea is generating it's own history you're creating and adding to the pile of human information of what is known and what is going to be known.

Just like the removal of Lenin or Sadam statues weren't removing their history. It's an addition to history that both will be historical factors of those regions that get washed away by some other toppling.

[Image: 06d3e65f76d3cf0da5501baaeaf80a7f?AccessK...oworigin=1]

But how many people going by that at a mardi gras or just driving by are really aware of what that is anyway? I know plenty of cities with statues of figures in prominent areas are largely unknown to bystanders. Like the William Penn statue that is in Philadelphia.

I don't think a plaque or removing it change anything about it.

I disagree with that analogy. I think the people under the rule of Saddam Hussein feel a great relief from having his statue removed. Is it right to leave the statue of a heinous dictator standing over the victims of his reign, being forever in his shadow? I don't think so. No more than a woman would want the picture of her rapists hanging in her living room. Just because it happen does not mean you should have to be reminded of it every day.

I don't think they should have to see it.. I'm saying I don't think it's removing history.

The putting up the statue and taking down of the statue is as much a historically significant moment as the persons historical existence.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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