Removing Civil War monuments
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
27-02-2016, 05:30 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
(27-02-2016 05:19 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 05:12 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  I disagree with that analogy. I think the people under the rule of Saddam Hussein feel a great relief from having his statue removed. Is it right to leave the statue of a heinous dictator standing over the victims of his reign, being forever in his shadow? I don't think so. No more than a woman would want the picture of her rapists hanging in her living room. Just because it happen does not mean you should have to be reminded of it every day.

I don't think they should have to see it.. I'm saying I don't think it's removing history.

The putting up the statue and taking down of the statue is as much a historically significant moment as the persons historical existence.

Oh, okay, my mistake. Smile

[Image: dnw9krH.jpg?4]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-02-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
(27-02-2016 05:14 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 09:53 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  This was on NPR last week. Several groups are petitioning to have Civil War monuments and statues removed.

http://www.npr.org/2015/12/17/460082447/...-monuments

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2015/07/02/je...xas-statue

Is this an attempt to erase history? ... Germany has kept it's concentration camps as a reminder of what oppressing a whole population of humans can do.

I'm with Germany on this. Monuments and landmarks capture the social sentiment at that time. It should be preserved.

(27-02-2016 09:53 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Is this the same as removing the flag?

I don't think so. While the monuments capture a valuable historical snapshot of social sentiment, flying the flag represents a desire to return there. Can Germans even fly the Nazi flag in Germany? I doubt it. Vosur and Szuchow would know.

That's an interesting contrast because the social sentiment at the time was basically a desire to return to the civil war/pre-civil war time.

It's known many of these statues were put up in direct contrast to how reconstruction was going decades later. It was a public display intended as a desire to show and go back to what "they had" as they felt before the reconstruction era was sweeping and bothering many people in the south. Some places even had parades of the event setting up the statue that I've heard accounted from historians. I just find these interesting elements to their erections about their historical place.

For instance this questioned Lee circle statue was built in 1888 and the Jefferson Davis statue in 1911.

I guess you can say they are a marker of that time still. When white southerners were pissed about losing what their fathers & grandfathers and still used what they could as a marker of strength which was at times parade the placing of these incoming confederate statues. Though I was also never against just anyone using the confederate flag, against that state whichever one it was doing it but hell, I knew of a guy who drove around in a truck on the Massachusetts/New Hampshire boarder with a Confederate flag and chuckled seeing it there, but good enough on him to do it.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ClydeLee's post
27-02-2016, 05:56 PM (This post was last modified: 27-02-2016 06:00 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
(27-02-2016 05:39 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That's an interesting contrast because the social sentiment at the time was basically a desire to return to the civil war/pre-civil war time.

Yes, and I think that historical social sentiment snapshot needs to be preserved. Flying flags on the other hand indicates a desire to return to the good old days instead of just preserving them.




#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-02-2016, 06:12 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
What about renaming of buildings that were named after people we should no longer be honoring? There is an effort underway at The University of Alabama to try to rename a building originally named after a Confederate general. This one is a little easier to justify, but many of the same arguments being presented here are being used against this effort.

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-02-2016, 06:18 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
(27-02-2016 06:12 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  What about renaming of buildings that were named after people we should no longer be honoring? There is an effort underway at The University of Alabama to try to rename a building originally named after a Confederate general. This one is a little easier to justify, but many of the same arguments being presented here are being used against this effort.

That would depend on who funded the building. Sometimes a person funds that building and if you accept the funds and them naming the building, then it should be left alone. If it was funded and named by the school and they want to change it then do that.

[Image: dnw9krH.jpg?4]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-02-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
(27-02-2016 06:18 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 06:12 PM)TurkeyBurner Wrote:  What about renaming of buildings that were named after people we should no longer be honoring? There is an effort underway at The University of Alabama to try to rename a building originally named after a Confederate general. This one is a little easier to justify, but many of the same arguments being presented here are being used against this effort.

That would depend on who funded the building. Sometimes a person funds that building and if you accept the funds and them naming the building, then it should be left alone. If it was funded and named by the school and they want to change it then do that.

It is not clear from the article if the building was directly funded by the man, if he was just a generous donor to the university, or was just honored for his contributions to society at the time.

I just wanted to let you know that I love you even though you aren't naked right now. Heart
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-02-2016, 07:14 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
(27-02-2016 05:39 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 05:14 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'm with Germany on this. Monuments and landmarks capture the social sentiment at that time. It should be preserved.


I don't think so. While the monuments capture a valuable historical snapshot of social sentiment, flying the flag represents a desire to return there. Can Germans even fly the Nazi flag in Germany? I doubt it. Vosur and Szuchow would know.

That's an interesting contrast because the social sentiment at the time was basically a desire to return to the civil war/pre-civil war time.

It's known many of these statues were put up in direct contrast to how reconstruction was going decades later. It was a public display intended as a desire to show and go back to what "they had" as they felt before the reconstruction era was sweeping and bothering many people in the south. Some places even had parades of the event setting up the statue that I've heard accounted from historians. I just find these interesting elements to their erections about their historical place.

For instance this questioned Lee circle statue was built in 1888 and the Jefferson Davis statue in 1911.

I guess you can say they are a marker of that time still. When white southerners were pissed about losing what their fathers & grandfathers and still used what they could as a marker of strength which was at times parade the placing of these incoming confederate statues. Though I was also never against just anyone using the confederate flag, against that state whichever one it was doing it but hell, I knew of a guy who drove around in a truck on the Massachusetts/New Hampshire boarder with a Confederate flag and chuckled seeing it there, but good enough on him to do it.

This comment--
"I knew of a guy who drove around in a truck on the Massachusetts/New Hampshire boarder with a Confederate flag and chuckled seeing it there, but good enough on him to do it"
--reminded me of an experience I had last summer, driving with my husband and son down the highway in Massachusetts and encountering a line of 50 or so pickup trucks all flying the Confederate flag, each truck being driven by a white dude, it probably goes without saying. It was the biggest collection of fucktards I've seen in person, since I've never been to a Trump rally.

I went to high school in Richmond, Virginia, which of course is filled with monuments and other art that celebrates the losing side of the war. The emotion associated with most of the Civil War monuments in that town was a kind of hothouse-fed rage, passed down through the generations as a handy excuse for every bad thing that had happened to any white southerner. The kind of people who want to "take back America" are very attached to these monuments.

I'm not for destroying the monuments, but I wouldn't mind new art close by with a counter-narrative. It's too late for the fucktards, but not for their kids. I hope.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like julep's post
27-02-2016, 07:40 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
(27-02-2016 07:14 PM)julep Wrote:  It was the biggest collection of fucktards I've seen in person, since I've never been to a Trump rally.

The kind of people who want to "take back America" are very attached to these monuments.

I'm not for destroying the monuments, but I wouldn't mind new art close by with a counter-narrative. It's too late for the fucktards, but not for their kids. I hope.

Just today a KKK rally in Anaheim left people stabbed. In Anaheim, California ffs Gasp

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-02-2016, 08:17 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
The only argument I can see for not removing them is for preserving history. Other than that there's not much of a reason to care.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-02-2016, 08:51 PM
RE: Removing Civil War monuments
Jefferson Davis, Robert E Lee and P. G. T. Beauregard were never involved with the KKK. Removing their statues is an attempt to erase history.

The flag, OTOH, was adopted and gratuitously displayed by the KKK. Whatever its original purpose, it subsequent usage by thugs disqualifies it as a national symbol. Let's not forget that the swastika began as a good luck symbol in the Early Bronze Age in India. However, since 1945 it too has become radioactive as a symbol.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Minimalist's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: