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30-06-2011, 08:52 PM
 
Reply: Christian/Israel Influence
Monk Wrote:Christian/Israel Influence in US foreign policy
A few days ago, I was doing some reading on some naval attacks, specifically, attacks after world war 2 that were directed at us (the US) from other countries. One thing I learned about, in greater detail was the USS Liberty. This intelligence ship was attacked by Israel June 8, 1967, during the Six-Day War. This ship was in international waters but the Israeli government decided to say it was a mistake, even though the crew all say they had /visual/ displays of American flags et al. Well, to skip through the crew statements, it appears the US government, in cooperation with Israeli government decided to cover it up. I guess it's because Egypt and Israel at the time had similar fighter jets, so if Israel sunk the ship they could blame it on Egypt and drag us into that war. One thing about it is there was no investigation by congress. None at all. I guess they weren't investigated because of their 'promised land' nonsense that we should let them get away with murder at the expense of religious bullshit.

The following quote is from Dave Hunt's book Judgment Day, which was first published back in 05'. He mentions this incident in particular, but offers a different perspective. I believe it's the truth because of Abba Eban's personnel testimony of the incident and because of what Monk mentioned, stating that both sides, the United States and Israel covered it up, which seems to only point to something subversive. You only cover up something you don't want anyone to know about. It doesn't surprise me that the U.S. would betray Israel, because it's seems that's what were currently doing today, asking them to pull back to the 1967 borders would leave them indefensible. The bible also makes this point very clear in that "all nations shall come against her."

"On June 8, the morning of the fourth day of the war, the USS
Liberty, a floating electronics vacuum, arrived off the Sinai coast.
It began to sweep Israel, sucking in every Israeli military com-
munication and relaying it all to the British Secret Service’s giant
electronic listening post on Cyprus, which had the capability of fil-
tering, decoding, and analyzing the mass of electronics the Liberty
was accumulating. This was then transmitted to the Arab armed
forces, giving complete maps of every Israeli military movement in
advance. With that help, the Arabs might have been able to use
their overwhelming numerical superiority to turn the tide of the war.
At least casualties on both sides would have been much larger.

The CIA had already been leaking secret Israeli information to
the Jordanians, but what the Liberty was doing was carrying the
diplomatic game too far. Israel had no choice except to sink this
American ship, which she did forthwith. Of course, the media was
filled with criticism for this heartless attack. No one believed Israel’s
excuse that the Liberty had been mistaken for a hostile Egyptian
ship. Neither the U.S. nor Israel cared to tell the truth, so the criti-
cism persists to this day.

Abba Eban, Israeli foreign minister, came the closest to telling
the story, if one reads between the lines. He was in New York at the
United Nations attempting to arrange a cease-fire. Although the
Egyptians, in the months before the war, had gone on record repeat-
edly that they were going to attack Israel and would exterminate all
the Israelis, they now self-righteously demanded that Israeli forces
withdraw first. But when the Liberty was sunk, Eban reports that
the Egyptian ambassador to the UN, El-Kony, was reduced to tears,
having received a message from Cairo “to get a cease-fire as soon as
possible.” This is not the only time the Americans have betrayed
Israel, their only true ally in the Middle East. After all, unlike the
Soviets in the days when they were the chief sponsors of the Arabs,
the U.S. tries to play both sides.
"

Abba Eban, Personal Witness: Israel Through My Eyes (London: Jonathan Cape, 1993), 422.
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30-06-2011, 09:30 PM (This post was last modified: 30-06-2011 09:39 PM by Monk.)
RE: Reply: Christian/Israel Influence
Check this out:

Findings of the Independent Commission of Inquiry into the Israeli Attack on USS Liberty, the Recall of Military Rescue Support Aircraft while the Ship was Under Attack, and the Subsequent Cover-up by the United States Government

Capitol Hill, Washington, D.C.

October 22, 2003

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, United States Navy, (Ret.)
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

General Raymond G. Davis, United States Marine Corps, (MOH)*
Former Assistant Commandant of The Marine Corps

Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, United States Navy, (Ret.)
Former Judge Advocate General Of The Navy

Ambassador James Akins, (Ret.)
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia

We, the undersigned, having undertaken an independent investigation of Israel's attack on USS Liberty, including eyewitness testimony from surviving crewmembers, a review of naval and other official records, an examination of official statements by the Israeli and American governments, a study of the conclusions of all previous official inquiries, and a consideration of important new evidence and recent statements from individuals having direct knowledge of the attack or the cover up, hereby find the following: **

1. That on June 8, 1967, after eight hours of aerial surveillance, Israel launched a two-hour air and naval attack against USS Liberty, the world's most sophisticated intelligence ship, inflicting 34 dead and 173 wounded American servicemen (a casualty rate of seventy percent, in a crew of 294);

2. That the Israeli air attack lasted approximately 25 minutes, during which time unmarked Israeli aircraft dropped napalm canisters on USS Liberty's bridge, and fired 30mm cannons and rockets into our ship, causing 821 holes, more than 100 of which were rocket-size; survivors estimate 30 or more sorties were flown over the ship by a minimum of 12 attacking Israeli planes which were jamming all five American emergency radio channels;

3. That the torpedo boat attack involved not only the firing of torpedoes, but the machine-gunning of Liberty's firefighters and stretcher-bearers as they struggled to save their ship and crew; the Israeli torpedo boats later returned to machine-gun at close range three of the Liberty's life rafts that had been lowered into the water by survivors to rescue the most seriously wounded;

4. That there is compelling evidence that Israel's attack was a deliberate attempt to destroy an American ship and kill her entire crew; evidence of such intent is supported by statements from Secretary of State Dean Rusk, Undersecretary of State George Ball, former CIA director Richard Helms, former NSA directors Lieutenant General William Odom, USA (Ret.), Admiral Bobby Ray Inman, USN (Ret.), and Marshal Carter; former NSA deputy directors Oliver Kirby and Major General John Morrison, USAF (Ret.); and former Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon in 1967;

5. That in attacking USS Liberty, Israel committed acts of murder against American servicemen and an act of war against the United States;

6. That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack; evidence of the recall of rescue aircraft is supported by statements of Captain Joe Tully, Commanding Officer of the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, and Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, at the time of the attack; never before in American naval history has a rescue mission been cancelled when an American ship was under attack;

7. That although Liberty was saved from almost certain destruction through the heroic efforts of the ship's Captain, William L. McGonagle (MOH), and his brave crew, surviving crewmembers were later threatened with "court-martial, imprisonment or worse" if they exposed the truth; and were abandoned by their own government;

8. That due to the influence of Israel's powerful supporters in the United States, the White House deliberately covered up the facts of this attack from the American people;

9. That due to continuing pressure by the pro-Israel lobby in the United States, this attack remains the only serious naval incident that has never been thoroughly investigated by Congress; to this day, no surviving crewmember has been permitted to officially and publicly testify about the attack;

10. That there has been an official cover-up without precedent in American naval history; the existence of such a cover-up is now supported by statements of Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN (Ret.), former Judge Advocate General of the Navy; and Captain Ward Boston, USN, (Ret.), the chief counsel to the Navy's 1967 Court of Inquiry of Liberty attack;

11. That the truth about Israel's attack and subsequent White House cover-up continues to be officially concealed from the American people to the present day and is a national disgrace;

12. That a danger to our national security exists whenever our elected officials are willing to subordinate American interests to those of any foreign nation, and specifically are unwilling to challenge Israel's interests when they conflict with American interests; this policy, evidenced by the failure to defend USS Liberty and the subsequent official cover-up of the Israeli attack, endangers the safety of Americans and the security of the United States.

WHEREUPON, we, the undersigned, in order to fulfill our duty to the brave crew of USS Liberty and to all Americans who are asked to serve in our Armed Forces, hereby call upon the Department of the Navy, the Congress of the United States and the American people to immediately take the following actions:

FIRST: That a new Court of Inquiry be convened by the Department of the Navy, operating with Congressional oversight, to take public testimony from surviving crewmembers; and to thoroughly investigate the circumstances of the attack on the USS Liberty, with full cooperation from the National Security Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency and the military intelligence services, and to determine Israel's possible motive in launching said attack on a U.S. naval vessel;

SECOND: That every appropriate committee of the Congress of the United States investigate the actions of the White House and Defense Department that prevented the rescue of the USS Liberty, thereafter threatened her surviving officers and men if they exposed the truth, and covered up the true circumstances of the attack from the American people; and

THIRD: That the eighth day of June of every year be proclaimed to be hereafter known as USS LIBERTY REMEMBRANCE DAY, in order to commemorate USS Liberty's heroic crew; and to educate the American people of the danger to our national security inherent in any passionate attachment of our elected officials for any foreign nation.

We, the undersigned, hereby affix our hands and seals, this 22nd day of October, 2003.

Thomas H. Moorer
Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff

General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, USMC, MOH*>

Merlin Staring
Rear Admiral Merlin Staring, USN, Ret.,
Former Judge Advocate General of the Navy

James Akins
Ambassador James Akins, Ret.,
Former United States Ambassador to Saudi Arabia

*IN MEMORIAM: General of Marines Raymond G. Davis, one of America's most decorated military heroes (including the Congressional Medal of Honor), Vice Chairman of this panel and one of the principal members of this Independent Commission of Inquiry, passed away in Conyers, Georgia, on September 3, 2003.>

** [1] Captain Ward Boston, USN, JAGC, Ret, the chief Navy attorney for the 1967 U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry into the Israeli attack, has recently come forward to repudiate the Court's conclusion that the attack was "a case of mistaken identity". Captain Boston has revealed that all available evidence, in fact, pointed in exactly the opposite direction - that it was a deliberate attack on a clearly identified American ship. In his affidavit dated October 9, 2003, Captain Boston states, "Admiral Kidd and I believed with certainty that this attack, which killed 34 American sailors and injured 173 others, was a deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew. I am certain that the Israeli pilots that undertook the attack, as well as their superiors who had ordered the attack, were aware that the ship was American." [See Exhibit attached]. Captain Boston stated that he has personal knowledge that Admiral Kidd found the attack to be "a case of mistaken identity" in 1967 only because he was under direct orders to do so by Defense Secretary McNamara and President Johnson.

[2] Lieutenant Commander David E. Lewis, USS Liberty's chief intelligence officer (who was severely wounded in the attack) has reported a conversation with Admiral Lawrence R. Geis, the Sixth Fleet carrier division commander, who visited Lewis after he had been medically evacuated by helicopter to the aircraft carrier USS America. According to Lewis, "He (Admiral Geis) said that he wanted somebody to know that we weren't forgotten" attempts HAD been made to come to our assistance. He said that he had launched a flight of aircraft to come to our assistance, and he had then called Washington. Secretary McNamara came on the line and ordered the recall of the aircraft, which he did. Concurrently he said that since he suspected that they were afraid that there might have been nuclear weapons on board, he reconfigured another flight of aircraft - strictly conventional weaponry - and re-launched it. After the second launch, he again called Washington to let them know what was going on. Again, Secretary McNamara ordered the aircraft recalled. Not understanding why, he requested confirmation of the order; and the next higher in command came on to confirm that "President Johnson...with the instructions that the aircraft were to be returned, that he would not have his allies embarrassed, he didn't care who was killed or what was done to the ship "words" to that effect. With that, Admiral Geis swore me to secrecy for his lifetime. I had been silent up until I found out from Admiral Moorer that Admiral Geis had passed away" [transcript from NBC's Liberty Story, aired on national television 1/27/92]. This statement by Commander Lewis has recently been corroborated by Tony Hart, a Navy communications technician stationed at the U.S. Navy Base in Morocco in June, 1967. Mr. Hart connected the telephone conversation between Secretary McNamara and Admiral Geis and stayed on the line to keep them connected. Hart has been recorded as saying that he overheard Admiral Geis refusing McNamara's order to recall the Sixth Fleet rescue aircraft while the ship was under attack. Mr. Hart reported that McNamara responded, "we are not going to war over a bunch of dead sailors."

[3] New evidence of intercepted radio communications between attacking Israeli pilots and the Israeli War Room, recorded by a U.S. Navy EC-121 spy plane, in which the Israeli pilots report seeing Liberty's American flag flying, has been collected by investigative author James Bamford - for 9 years the Washington Investigative Producer for ABC's World News Tonight with Peter Jennings (and author of Body of Secrets, which includes a chapter entitled Blood about the attack on USS Liberty). A similar radio message was intercepted by the EC-121 from the Israeli motor torpedo boats. This corroborates statements by surviving crewmembers, by Ambassador Dwight Porter, and by senior National Security Agency officials concerning NSA intercepts of Israeli pilot communications identifying the ship as American.

And here is a good one. Please note I am not 'anti-jewish' or anything. I, however, don't like my country being manipulated by another country due to religion and not facts. Here are some /good/ facts:

Senator J. William Fulbright told CBS Face the Nation on April 15, 1973, "Israel controls the U.S. Senate. The Senate is subservient, much too much; we should be more concerned about U.S. interests rather than doing the bidding of Israel. The great majority of the Senate of the U.S. - somewhere around 80% - is completely in support of Israel; anything Israel wants; Israel gets. This has been demonstrated time and again, and this has made [foreign policy] difficult for our government."
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Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff under Ronald Reagan said this:

"I've never seen a President -- I don't care who he is -- stand up to them [the Israelis]. It just boggles the mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. If the American people understood what a grip those people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens certainly don't have any idea what goes on."
------------
Writing for the Nation Magazine, journalist Michael Massing explains:

"AIPAC is widely regarded as the most powerful foreign-policy lobby in Washington. Its 60,000 members shower millions of dollars on hundreds of members of Congress on both sides of the aisle. Newspapers like the New York Times fear the Jewish lobby organizations as well. "It's very intimidating," said a correspondent at another large daily. "The pressure from these groups is relentless."
---------------
An Israeli journalist named Ari Shavit, lamenting the harsh treatments that his government dishes out to the Palestinians, made the following observation in Ha'aretz, a leading Israeli journal:

" We believe with absolute certitude that now, with the White House and Senate in our hands along with the Pentagon and the New York Times, the lives [of Arabs] do not count as much as our own. Their blood does not count as much as our blood. We believe with absolute certitude that now, when we have AIPAC [the Israel lobby] and [Edgar] Bronfman and the Anti-Defamation League, , we truly have the right to tell 400,000 people that in eight hours they must flee from their homes. And that we have the right to rain bombs on their villages and towns and populated areas. That we have the right to kill without any guilt."
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01-07-2011, 12:17 AM
 
RE: Reply: Christian/Israel Influence
What was the USS Liberty doing off the Sinai coast anyways? It was the worlds most sophisticated intelligence ship at the time. Don't you think it's possible that they were supplying intel to the Arab states, seems a little coincidental. Also, Israel's attack of the Liberty was intentional, so what was the motivation if not self perseverance? Israel was fighting for it's very existence against the Arab states.

The article you posted implies coverup to me. No reason was given for the attacks and I find that strange and disingenuous. All it really states is something we already know, that Israel attacked the USS Liberty. There is a gapping hole in the story, the truth lies in the reason for the attack.

This doesn't make much sense to me either: "That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack" What were they fearing exactly, a confrontation with tiny Israel. I mean they wouldn't go in and rescue their own? What gives...sounds more like they knew the reason for the attack and decide to back off. Too many unanswered questions for me. Thanks for the post though, I can appreciate your argument, but I'm left feeling unconvinced for the time being.
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01-07-2011, 01:13 AM
RE: Reply: Christian/Israel Influence
(01-07-2011 12:17 AM)Hunted By A Freak Wrote:  What was the USS Liberty doing off the Sinai coast anyways? It was the worlds most sophisticated intelligence ship at the time. Don't you think it's possible that they were supplying intel to the Arab states, seems a little coincidental. Also, Israel's attack of the Liberty was intentional, so what was the motivation if not self perseverance? Israel was fighting for it's very existence against the Arab states.

The article you posted implies coverup to me. No reason was given for the attacks and I find that strange and disingenuous. All it really states is something we already know, that Israel attacked the USS Liberty. There is a gapping hole in the story, the truth lies in the reason for the attack.

This doesn't make much sense to me either: "That fearing conflict with Israel, the White House deliberately prevented the U.S. Navy from coming to the defense of USS Liberty by recalling Sixth Fleet military rescue support while the ship was under attack" What were they fearing exactly, a confrontation with tiny Israel. I mean they wouldn't go in and rescue their own? What gives...sounds more like they knew the reason for the attack and decide to back off. Too many unanswered questions for me. Thanks for the post though, I can appreciate your argument, but I'm left feeling unconvinced for the time being.

If you remember correctly, at the time of the war, Egypt was more or less an Ally of the Soviet Union. We were probably monitoring their communications to see if they were going to come to their (Egypts) aid. It could've escalated into nuclear war if the Soviets got involved.

Besides, the ship was in international waters. How did Israel know where the ship was? Sounds very fishy to me. We spy on China all the time, they don't go attacking our ships at sea, do they?

This is sorta not anything on Atheism, but this implies a conspiracy, due to religious stuff, they would be willing to cover it up because of some religious nonsense.
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01-07-2011, 04:21 AM
RE: Reply: Christian/Israel Influence
I would look at it this way:

Egypt was supposedly an ally of Russia.
Israel was supposedly an ally of ours.
Why would the Israelis attack an ally's ship in international waters when they were already at war with a formidable enemy? They had zero hope of passing it off as an attack by Egypt. This ship had working communication gear, and there were survivors. Even if the gear's transmissions were blocked, the survivors still could tell the story. And as asked by Hunted By A Freak, why did we cancel the intervention to save our own ship? That in itself is an act of treason!
Johnson was probably the most devious president we ever had, prior to "W". I have little doubt that he was playing both sides of the field for his own benefit. That would be his style. He, like "W", was a sock puppet for big business. War is a business to these kinds of people, and for him, business was good at our expense.
I tend to believe the U.S. was up to something subversive myself. Though most American people tend to be good people, the U.S. government is a whole different story. I have little doubt that our spy ship was up to "no good" against our own allies. That type of behavior would be typical of our government, if there was money to be made somewhere. Our politicians would try to steal the pennies off their dead mother's eyes, then try to blame someone else when they are caught in the act.

Oxymoron: "Religious teaching"
"Simple common sense goes out the window when religion comes in through the door." Me (Blasphemy Fan )
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01-07-2011, 05:02 AM
RE: Reply: Christian/Israel Influence
What is so strange here? Jews have money and banks, USA needs money and banks, Israel is in the middle of Middle East and as such it can produce much needed oil. Also it is the single non-muslim country in the region full of oil and ruled by Islamic laws. So whenever USA wants to go get some part of Middle East, Israel can be their starting point. Also they have nuclear weapons... Now, why is USA friend with Israel? Not so difficult to answer...

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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01-07-2011, 07:25 PM
 
RE: Reply: Christian/Israel Influence
(01-07-2011 04:21 AM)blasphemy fan Wrote:  I would look at it this way:

Egypt was supposedly an ally of Russia.
Israel was supposedly an ally of ours.
Why would the Israelis attack an ally's ship in international waters when they were already at war with a formidable enemy? They had zero hope of passing it off as an attack by Egypt. This ship had working communication gear, and there were survivors. Even if the gear's transmissions were blocked, the survivors still could tell the story. And as asked by Hunted By A Freak, why did we cancel the intervention to save our own ship? That in itself is an act of treason!
The only logical conclusion was self defense, at least until someone presents a plausible alternative. Loved that bit about Johnson, "Johnson was probably the most devious president we ever had, prior to "W" Cool
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02-07-2011, 07:29 AM
RE: Reply: Christian/Israel Influence
I really don't give a damn about what the bible says about Israel because I think it's a fairy tale for adults, but I do care about foreign policy, and I do agree, Israel has been a thorn in our policy for years and years.

This country is a theocracy, it is founded on Judaism. People get their panties in a bunch knowing we are allied with another theocracy Saudi Arabia, so I don't know why Israel is the exception.

Israel is always in conflict with it's neighbors, it has zero sensitivity for the conflicts they cause and have very little care to work things out.

Israel is more than capable of funding it's self, and that is fairly well known, like many people have noted Israel is a nice jumping off point for operations in the middle east. To be honest, I think when we get off our oil habit, Israel will find it's self without most of it's friends.

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