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27-01-2015, 01:53 PM
Require Help in this debate
So I'm a newbie here but I've read some of y'alls posts and think you can help me.

Problem:
I recently discovered my friend is a Young Earth Creationists. This is by no means her fault as she was raised and home schooled by two (very) closed minded Young Earth Creationist. I have been attempting to prove to her that evolution has provided a more satisfactory answer to life on earth and that the Earth (and by proxy the Universe) is way older than 6000-10000 yrs old. So far my evidence has included the fossil record (which she says she doesn't trust due to inconsistencies with carbon dating), light from the stars I gave her the equation (time=distance/speed(of light)) as well as the distance of some well known stars. But I don't know what else to give her. Any ideas?

"With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied chains us all irrevocably." -Jean Luc Picard quoting Judge Aaron Satie
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27-01-2015, 02:52 PM
RE: Require Help in this debate
Most fossils are way too old to date with carbon-14 and there is nothing wrong with C-14 dating or the other dating methods for dating older fossils. The NCSE has a section on refuting these lame attempts by YECs that I highly recommend. Also, Donald Prothero's book Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why it Matters just lays waste to to creationists with a great set of facts and historical perspectives (Seth's podcast with him is excellent as well as Jerry Coyne's). I these sources are great if you are going to be engaging YECs.
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27-01-2015, 02:54 PM
RE: Require Help in this debate
Ask her who is more credible?

Stephen Hawking - who can do the math, and show the size and age of the known universe ---

Or some moldy old book written by goatherders who thought the world was flat, the center of the universe, and created by some invisible bearded joker, who finds "smiting" the apex of entertainment?

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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27-01-2015, 02:59 PM
RE: Require Help in this debate
Tell your friend that when one does the math it is not possible for 8 people to become 7,200,000,000 people in 4500 years (about the time lapse since the supposed Noahtic flood).

The rate of reproduction would have to have held steady at 7 times the known rate of population growth.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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27-01-2015, 03:09 PM
RE: Require Help in this debate
Thanks guys I will definitely use these and will get back to you on her response.

"With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied chains us all irrevocably." -Jean Luc Picard quoting Judge Aaron Satie
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27-01-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: Require Help in this debate
There are ~200 Billion stars in the Milky Way
There are ~100 Billion galaxies in the observable universe
You simply cannot cram that many stars into a bubble 6019 light-years in radius

Since light moves at a finite speed, the observable horizon of the universe is the age of the universe times the speed of light.
d = vt
For those of us who are sane that's 13.7 Billion light-years, give or take pocket change.
For YECs that's a mere 6019 light-years and that simply cannot be big enough.

There are two "solutions":

1) Mess with the speed of light.
- E = mc2 See that letter c in the equation? That's the speed of light. It's a universal constant. Guess what happens if you change it. BOOM! Assuming space-time survives, every star in the universe explodes and ordinary matter ceases to be stable. It's what you might call a downward career move.

2) The Omphalos Hypothesis. God created everything 6019 years ago, including the light already en route. Aside from falling afoul of Last Thursdayism, that light contains information about things that happened. Or in this case things that didn't happen. And that makes god a liar.

Helpful resources on this sort of stuff can be found at Talk.Origins and Iron Chariots.

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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28-01-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: Require Help in this debate
Here is the NCSE link answering creationists claims that C-14 dating is inacurate:
http://ncse.com/cej/3/2/answers-to-creat...-14-dating
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28-01-2015, 09:03 AM
RE: Require Help in this debate
What's your aim in this discussion? If it's just to get rid of the YEC rather than the religion then maybe direct her to the fact that Kenneth Miller and Francis Collins are Christians, believe in an old earth and are very eminent scientists.


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



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28-01-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: Require Help in this debate
(27-01-2015 02:59 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Tell your friend that when one does the math it is not possible for 8 people to become 7,200,000,000 people in 4500 years (about the time lapse since the supposed Noahtic flood).

The rate of reproduction would have to have held steady at 7 times the known rate of population growth.

New math just in (thanks morondog): reducing the number of years from 6000 (creation of Adam and Eve) to 4500 (time since flood) the rate of growth would have to be 9x (not 7x) best estimate of known historical population growth!

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-01-2015, 11:28 AM
RE: Require Help in this debate
All the above suggestions, worthy though they are, are addressing a symptom but not the cause of the problem.

To address the cause, one must ask... why does one believe what one believes?

Monkeygirl,
I'm guessing that you, and perhaps also your friend, are in your late teens...

On a quiet evening, looking up at the stars, explain to your friend how you felt when you first started to realise that your own parents (or aunts and uncles) did not have all the answers... they were not the super-beings you thought they were... they were as flawed and scared and insecure as the rest of us.

You will be sowing the seed of doubt. Don't expect an immediate harvest.

The crop will be showing signs of ripeness when, at some later time, you hear your friend say, when confronted with a disagreeable 'fact'... "citation needed".

Wink

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