Resource-Based Economy and The Venus Project (Sociocyberneering)
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29-07-2013, 06:59 PM
Resource-Based Economy and The Venus Project (Sociocyberneering)
I want to introduce and propose the RBE and TVP as a solution to global problems. I think it's awesome. Not perfect, just hell a lot better than what we have now. And totally within our possibilities today. It's a huge topic, so consider this just an introduction.

One of many things I like about TVP, it's based on lots of social science, behavioral science and philosophy, not just technology and natural sciences. It's not a system that turns you into a machine (employment, anyone?), it's a system that uses machines so that we can truly live as humans.
One tragedy of the current world is, that social scientists are helpless without technology and science and natural science is misapplied without humanities and ethics. I mean, TVP does not even order people around! TVP is based on a design of environment, we design places in such a way that behaving in a nice way is normal. It's the most obvious, comfortable thing to do. No coercion necessary.

Hell, many things could be said, but I just won't. Market economy is like Christianity, it also throws lots of bad arguments against TVP, that were answered over and over. TVP is not easy to understand. I suspect it is a college grade subject that you have to actually study. Read books, watch videos, listen to lectures and so on. Or you won't likely understand it.

In TVP, when technology lacks, the problem is simply educated out of society by education and design of the environment. Today you have to cheat to get an advantage. In TVP the environment is already pre-cheated for you. (of course there are rules and tradeoffs for that - carrying capacity of environment, most notably! No 10 or 20 million cities in TVP!)
In market economy everything is simple and clear, you either have money and can have a life, or you don't an you're screwed. In RBE nothing is pre-determined. RBE allows us to apply any solution from any science. Quantum technology is the bottom, space technology is the top. Don't have resources? We can use science to find out a substitute! I am pretty sure that back in the olde days there was a free market with clay tablets. Then there was a market with papyrus and pergamen. And whole fucking lot of good did that to us. We went from stone tablets to digital age, where information is almost unlimited, thanks to technology. Technology solves the problems, market just smears them around and makes a profit on them.

Why am I so enthusiastic about it? Because TVP and Fresco made my thinking much clearer. He showed me how to cut through so much bullshit of the current system and society, how the current problems are solvable. I love that feeling, of seeing all the solutions and possibilities. All right, here are some introductory resources that I appreciated the most.

FAQ (if it doesn't work for you, it's the home page -> The Venus Project -> FAQ)
http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project/faq

The books Looking Forward and Designing the Future
http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/downlo...vds-ebooks

If you know something about economy or Libertarianism, this video should answer your questions and objections.




This video is greatly helpful too. Shortly said, classical economy bases benefit by personal preferences that you make on the market. However, that was before the advent of neurologically tuned marketing. When you see a supermarket full of people buying random crap from ads, the personal preference theory loses its edge. RBE uses the capabilities approach by Manfred Max-Neef and Amartya Sen.
TVP solves lots of things technically, but not all. What if someone just starts taking too much stuff lying around, what will you do? Now, that's where social sciences, environmental design and different values kick in. The environment determines the culture and human behavior, not laws or rules.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_human_needs

Now, let's say you agree that TVP is a nice idea. Do we have a technology for it? Yes, we have! Here you'll find lots of videos of commercially available technologies to grow food or produce energy and automate nearly everything.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TVPWebDev?feature=watch

I personally subscribe to an idea, that the market economy is done for. Many of you know that the rich people can't put back into the economy what they earn, they accumulate money too fast. Unless they like give half of their wealth to charity or something, it doesn't trickle down. Plus there is this technologic unemployment thing. This sort of system has a shelf life. It works only for a certain time and then breaks down.
TVP never breaks down, because it is designed to change, to evolve. The TVP city is basically a self-sustaining integrated economic machine. It's like a computer and there is no perfect computer, they improve all the time, changing components. There is always a room for improvement. Stuff can get always smaller and better and more efficient.

One of ways I like to think about it, let's say a group of NASA scientists developed the best way to live on the Moon. Airtight domes, solar panels, rock harvesters, oxygen convertors, all in one place, all in one crater... Now imagine the same guys would design the best way of living on Earth. Earth has a plenty of air and water, so the design is changed, but the same rules apply.

Daaamn, I should make college courses about this. You guys might appreciate the lectures and Q & A sessions with Fresco himself.
http://www.youtube.com/user/nitturo/vide...x=3&view=0

I think Fresco is awesome. Old, but still impressive. I wonder why he isn't yet popular among atheist community, because he's a solid materialist and atheist. He did basically what James Randi did, going around, searching for real magic and exposing frauds.







He has some really radical ideas. Basically, we do not have the right to make our own opinions. We have to arrive at them by study and investigation.







You may study and discuss, or ask questions. I have just a request for you. Please before you ask
- read the goddamn FAQ
- Search around on youtube for Jacque Fresco's talks on various topics (such as Jacque Fresco laws )
- read the books like The Best That Money Can't Buy and other mentioned books.
AND
PLEASE don't explain basic economy to me. Frusty I understand basic economy. In fact, I understand it from so many angles and points of view, that it's almost unrecognizable. If you feel like explaining basics of economy to me, then you misunderstood me. I can shift paradigms to see problems in a new way as quickly and subconsciously as blinking and I know it drives economists crazy. But humanity has problems and as Einstein said, problems can not be solved by the same thinking that created them.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
The Venus Project
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30-07-2013, 03:31 AM
RE: Resource-Based Economy and The Venus Project (Sociocyberneering)
So far, the economic philosophy still hasn't sufficiently explained how corruption and abuse would be remedied. Further more, many would still have to provide services. How would we justify their working but not receiving any additional form of compensation? This system still seems to conflict with human nature, despite it sounding appealing on paper.

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30-07-2013, 04:00 PM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2013 04:42 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Resource-Based Economy and The Venus Project (Sociocyberneering)
(30-07-2013 03:31 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  So far, the economic philosophy still hasn't sufficiently explained how corruption and abuse would be remedied.
The basic principle is, human behavior follows the environment. If the environment makes corruption and abuse possible, or even offers possible advantages for it, there will be abuse and corruption. Laws and courts will not do anything about it, except more fuss.

The way to remove these phenomena is to design the environment in such a way, that makes such behaviors unthinkable. For example, Libertarians want to decrease the amount of money government has, and so nobody would even go to steal the government money. TVP wants to do away with money entirely. Money is a wild card, a magical super-resource that everyone is after, that makes you a superhuman. Sounds like a plot from a bad dystopian novel, but that's how we live. Without money there is no way to buy, sell, bribe, mug, rob and burglarize. In TVP apartments already come with all this stuff built-in.

(30-07-2013 03:31 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Further more, many would still have to provide services. How would we justify their working but not receiving any additional form of compensation?
Firstly, the dumb, simple, repeatable jobs are the easiest and the first to get automated. Even cooking. Man, there is a Chinese machine that can cook 600 dishes. Nobody would have to cook if they don't want to.
http://www.popsci.com/gadgets/article/20...ese-dishes

Secondly, there are many volunteers and community service groups in America alone and they put in a decent man-hour rate every week, without getting a penny. They do this actually at a disadvantage, in the current system. Their time is short as it is, due to a day job. In TVP people don't need to have a day job, so the volunteering will get a new appeal. I can appreciate the social aspect of volunteering, because the work provides the structure and opportunity to hang out with people, find friends and have an interesting talk. I need this kind of structure and as digital age progresses, many will too. Anyway, people are not machines, they don't stop working without money, if they have basic needs provided and the work has any value to them. Specially the more qualified jobs, they're motivated by other things than money. There is no rule of medicine that brain surgeons must wear gold, platinum and diamonds in order to work.

Thirdly, it may seem strange to us, multi-lingual digital intellectuals, but some people don't actually like complex jobs. They like to do something simple. When I worked at a car factory, I suffered every day, because the boredom and repetition was so thick it was painful. However, I had co-workers who seemed to genuinely enjoy the routine and certainty that one car per minute on conveyor belt brings you.

(30-07-2013 03:31 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  This system still seems to conflict with human nature, despite it sounding appealing on paper.
People often misunderstand TVP, because they come with lots of assumptions about human nature. They see how people behave in today's environment and say it is human nature. But change the environment and human behavior changes too.

Tell me, what do you mean by human nature? That people do not change their behavior? Let's say, if I touch a hot stove and get a burn, I will touch it again. If there is something I like to buy and the price gets tripled, I will buy it anyway. If I arrange an adoption of a Chinese newborn baby to Italian parents, the baby will grow up speaking Chinese, unlike everyone else around. That's human nature, it never changes.
(yes, sarcasm Smile )
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