Respect for Religion
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04-01-2012, 09:31 PM
Respect for Religion
This has been discussed by many atheists before, but I had an interesting observation today that brought this topic to the surface again.

Today I started a new semester of my senior year in high school. As a special priveledge of being a senior I am able to aid in the office for a class period. As I was reading up on the specific rules on being a student office aid and I found one interesting rule:

"Parents only may eat with their student at lunch. However, Pastors or youth ministers may eat with the student they are mentoring if they provide their church name on their nametag"

This is not verbatim, but it shows the general idea. Why are pastors/ youth ministers given such special rights? Granted, I do not know why anyone would want to eat the school food.

I just thought it was interesting and I would like to hear everyones opinion on the matter of respect or high priviledge for religion. Personally, I believe religion should not have any exemptions, priviledges, or rights beyond those given to secular groups or individuals.
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04-01-2012, 09:49 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
Hey, Kaos.

Uhm, this might sound like the answer to what colour is the Emperor's white horse, but are they not allowed to eat with students because they are mentoring them? That is to say, offering a valuable service in the development of that child. I mean, by the sounds of things it's a reasonably religious school, but would you have the same issue if it said that Big Brothers and Big Sisters are allowed to eat with students at lunch as long as they have the name of their organisation on their name tag?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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04-01-2012, 10:02 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
Is this a public school?
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04-01-2012, 10:04 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
I don't think he has any actual issue only the question of why. While you bring it up, why wouldn't it say mentor? The answer is the reason for the question. Why are religions granted special privilege. Likely it doesn't just say mentor because like you said Ghost, it sounds like a relatively religious school.
If that is the case I see no issue with it. To complain would be silly, and it would be like complaining about prayer in a catholic school. But if it isn't then I would take issue with it. Not the religious mentor being allowed to lunch with its student but the preference given to a religious mentor over any other type.
All in all it's not really a big issue.
But as to the larger question of why religion is given preferential treatment... It's dominant. It shouldn't be treated this way but it will be until it is no longer dominant. Maybe even longer as most atheists don't exactly wish to oppress anybody.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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04-01-2012, 10:29 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
(04-01-2012 09:31 PM)Kaos MD Wrote:  This has been discussed by many atheists before, but I had an interesting observation today that brought this topic to the surface again.

Today I started a new semester of my senior year in high school. As a special priveledge of being a senior I am able to aid in the office for a class period. As I was reading up on the specific rules on being a student office aid and I found one interesting rule:

"Parents only may eat with their student at lunch. However, Pastors or youth ministers may eat with the student they are mentoring if they provide their church name on their nametag"

This is not verbatim, but it shows the general idea. Why are pastors/ youth ministers given such special rights? Granted, I do not know why anyone would want to eat the school food.

I just thought it was interesting and I would like to hear everyones opinion on the matter of respect or high priviledge for religion. Personally, I believe religion should not have any exemptions, priviledges, or rights beyond those given to secular groups or individuals.

You are right to be concerned, but the reality is that they do get special consideration and there is probably little that you can do about it. How else could the sex scandals of the Catholic Church last as long as it did and cause so much damage? Clergy is given special privilege because of the social legacy they commanded for so many centuries. This is diminishing, but not fast enough.

"Give me the child before he is seven and I'll give you the man." The Jesuit motto attributed to Francis Xavier co-founder of the Jesuit Order.

Children are easily fooled into believing things that are outlandishly implausible. Santa, flying reindeer, Easter bunny, Jesus, etc... Once the mind believes something it seems to get hard wired and difficult to let it go. Get them early when they will believe just about anything.

If I may be so forward and recommend. You are a high school senior and probably looking at a career in education as you are working in the admin office. Go as high as you can on your education. Become the person in charge of making policy. Then make the changes that you believe are right. This is not a short battle for the mind of humanity. Future generations of smart young people like you must take the lead as us old guys give out. We have blazed a trail for you, but we can't stay around forever. We lost Hitch last month. Follow the lessons of Sun Tzu and choose your battles wisely.
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04-01-2012, 11:45 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
Hey, Lucradis.

This is my gut talking. From what I know of program planning, giving permission to a group of adults to come into a school and have lunch with students (read minors) takes some doing. You can't be general about it, otherwise Chester the Molester would have a field day. My guess is that they designed a mentoring program through the church, thus, the school rule says that clergy, for the purposes of mentoring only, with accreditation, are the only adults other than parents allowed to eat with the kids.

You're right though, if they allowed religious mentors to the exclusion of others, then that's some bullshit.

And as for why religions are given special treatment, you might as well ask why Halliburton is given special treatment. The US is, as Bill Maher coined the term, a cleptocracy. Special interest groups with money and power, especially lobbying money, get preferential treatment. Those more inclined to doucheyness would call it "realpolitik".

Hey, Thomas.

Quote:Go as high as you can on your education. Become the person in charge of making policy. Then make the changes that you believe are right.

Interestingly, this is how the Afrikaners took over South Africa and managed to institute apartheid. They (the amorphous they) lobbied to change one small piece of legislation, that government workers needed to be bilingual, namely, they needed to have Afrikaans as one of their languages. Many of the English didn't speak Afrikaans and many of the blacks didn't speak it/despised it (there was a massacre years later when school children protested being forced to learn in Afrikaans. About 176 students were gunned down). So Afrikaners took over the bureaucracy and, by extension, decision making power. They then took over the country and made life great for Afrikaners and a living hell for blacks. Just saying, it's a pretty relatively non-democratic manoeuvre with a sketchy historical precedent.

ON EDIT: I may have made a link there from policy to administration that you didn’t intend. Let me know if you did or didn’t.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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04-01-2012, 11:52 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
(04-01-2012 09:49 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Kaos.

Uhm, this might sound like the answer to what colour is the Emperor's white horse, but are they not allowed to eat with students because they are mentoring them? That is to say, offering a valuable service in the development of that child. I mean, by the sounds of things it's a reasonably religious school, but would you have the same issue if it said that Big Brothers and Big Sisters are allowed to eat with students at lunch as long as they have the name of their organisation on their name tag?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
(04-01-2012 11:45 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Lucradis.

This is my gut talking. From what I know of program planning, giving permission to a group of adults to come into a school and have lunch with students (read minors) takes some doing. You can't be general about it, otherwise Chester the Molester would have a field day. My guess is that they designed a mentoring program through the church, thus, the school rule says that clergy, for the purposes of mentoring only, with accreditation, are the only adults other than parents allowed to eat with the kids.

You're right though, if they allowed religious mentors to the exclusion of others, then that's some bullshit.

And as for why religions are given special treatment, you might as well ask why Halliburton is given special treatment. The US is, as Bill Maher coined the term, a cleptocracy. Special interest groups with money and power, especially lobbying money, get preferential treatment. Those more inclined to doucheyness would call it "realpolitik".

Hey, Thomas.

Quote:Go as high as you can on your education. Become the person in charge of making policy. Then make the changes that you believe are right.

Interestingly, this is how the Afrikaners took over South Africa and managed to institute apartheid. They (the amorphous they) lobbied to change one small piece of legislation, that government workers needed to be bilingual, namely, they needed to have Afrikaans as one of their languages. Many of the English didn't speak Afrikaans and many of the blacks didn't speak it/despised it (there was a massacre years later when school children protested being forced to learn in Afrikaans. About 176 students were gunned down). So Afrikaners took over the bureaucracy and, by extension, decision making power. They then took over the country and made life great for Afrikaners and a living hell for blacks. Just saying, it's a pretty relatively non-democratic manoeuvre with a sketchy historical precedent.

ON EDIT: I may have made a link there from policy to administration that you didn’t intend. Let me know if you did or didn’t.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Did you just feel like rambling incoherently and giving a speech about South Africa?
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05-01-2012, 12:06 AM
 
RE: Respect for Religion
(04-01-2012 09:31 PM)Kaos MD Wrote:  This has been discussed by many atheists before, but I had an interesting observation today that brought this topic to the surface again.

Today I started a new semester of my senior year in high school. As a special priveledge of being a senior I am able to aid in the office for a class period. As I was reading up on the specific rules on being a student office aid and I found one interesting rule:

"Parents only may eat with their student at lunch. However, Pastors or youth ministers may eat with the student they are mentoring if they provide their church name on their nametag"

This is not verbatim, but it shows the general idea. Why are pastors/ youth ministers given such special rights? Granted, I do not know why anyone would want to eat the school food.

I just thought it was interesting and I would like to hear everyones opinion on the matter of respect or high priviledge for religion. Personally, I believe religion should not have any exemptions, priviledges, or rights beyond those given to secular groups or individuals.

There's no conspiracy here. You may have a problem with religion, but most people do not. Pastors and ministers are very important to a vast majority of people. My wife and I were married by a Christian minister (who was also a chaplain in the USAF Reserves). When I die, and I’m assuming I will die before my wife, I want a Christian minister to do my funeral. These things matter to people, and these people who you think should have no special rights do have special rights in civilization. Society gives them those rights, whether you like it or not.

You, as an atheist, think you should be treated like everyone else, but “everyone else” doesn’t feel that way. If you read the entry on my blog (it doesn’t matter), you will see that in polls that have been conducted, atheists and rapists have about the same level of trust from people in society.

You’re an atheist. Do you think I would ever give you a job if I knew that about you? Do you think I would ever let you near anyone I loved, or if you wanted to marry my daughter, that I would ever let you be part of my family? You have no moral foundation. You might do anything at any time. Pastors and ministers have the opposite reputation. They respect the authority of God and the ethics He has communicated to us through the Bible. This is a fact of life that will never change. People will not evolve out of it, and no one will ever trust someone they know to be an atheist.

If you choose to be an atheist in society, you will be thought of right alongside criminals. They don’t seem to have any moral foundation either. And here’s another fact of life you might as well get used to: civilization always wins. At its core, atheism is anti-civilization; it is antisocial. So, you will always be on the losing end.
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05-01-2012, 12:12 AM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2012 12:21 AM by Ghost.)
RE: Respect for Religion
Byrd...

I'm pretty sick of this song and dance. You utterly dismiss me. I call you a penis. You retort with, "hey, big guy, guess you can't take a joke." Well you know what? I love jokes. But that's just you dismissing me and it ain't cool. You might not like what I have to say but at least I'm investing myself. I put time, effort and thought into everything I write and while I get into arguments and even lose my temper when people make things personal, I never, EVER, take a shot at someone for the sake of taking a shot at someone. That's what you did here and while you were at it, you contributed sum zero to this conversation. I wasn't rambling, I wasn't incoherent and I wasn't random. So whatever. Be a troll if it means so much to you.

ON EDIT:

Hey, Egor.

Quote:Do you think I would ever give you a job if I knew that about you?

I'm a pretty open guy. I love a diversity of voices. But this is just naked bigotry. I'm black. This doesn't fly. Do you have any idea how many millions of black people had to die to stop people from saying they wouldn't hire them or give them a fair shake just because they're black?

I know ministers. Lots of them. And they'd all be disgusted to the core if they heard someone who self-identifies as a Christian and a follower of the Good Word of Jesus telling people that they'd discriminate against them. I'm disgusted. Your behaviour is inexcusable.
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05-01-2012, 12:20 AM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2012 07:51 AM by Buddy Christ.)
RE: Respect for Religion
I'm going to use your thread title and completely change the topic to something else. The whole "respect" aspect of religious beliefs. Every time I make fun of Muslim women and their attire, my Christian apologetic stalker tells me I need to "respect their beliefs." It's been said by many other atheists, but I feel the need to reiterate the point. Why is religion the only system of beliefs that demands immediate respect? If a homeless man were to tell me that Xarthos and his minions will soon fly to earth on their toasters and enslave mankind, am I supposed to "respect his beliefs?" No. Why is the belief in a cloud man and his zombie apocalypse given immunity to our logical inquiries, simply because they use the magic word; religion?

We make progress as a species by NOT granting ideas immediate respect. We dissect them, we cross examine them, and then we decide whether to respect them or dismiss them. Anyways... had to get that out. As you were.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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