Respect for Religion
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19-12-2012, 11:12 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
Hey, Science.

1 - I dated this woman once. She taught me a valuable lesson. She said that she can find good and bad in everything and that those who say something is either all good or all bad, should be ignored. I get that you don't like religion, but I assume that you do like reason and intellectual honesty. If you really think that there is no wisdom whatsoever in any religion, well, I'm just gonna listen to her advice.

2 - Religion IS a part of culture. I agree fully. It's a memeplex. A co-adapted meme complex. Entirely analagous to a co-adapted gene complex, like tetrapodism, or eyes, or the CNS. As for human sacrifice, no, I'm not going to argue that because that's called being trapped by an unfair frame.

3 - Not only is socially constructed reality supportable, I have supplied reams of support for it in this thread. But you didn't engage with a shred of it. Instead, you overlooked it, to be polite, and then pretend that it doesn't exist. If that's how you choose to roll, so be it. I no more fear your dismissal of socially constructed reality, than I fear Chas' dismissal of Universal Darwinism, or than I fear Fred Phelps' dismissal of evolution. I know that I have the facts on my side. As the saying goes, I'm on the right side of history.

Quote:The religious should be respected, as all humans should.

I am glad that we agree.

Comparing a religious person to a sociopath is hyperbole.

If you stand by your original statement, so be it. Clearly nothing I can say will change that. But if some religious person one day punches you in the teeth because they feel that you're being condescending, don't say that I didn't slide you a friendly warning Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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19-12-2012, 11:56 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
Warning noted. Thanks.
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20-12-2012, 01:00 AM
Respect for Religion
(19-12-2012 11:12 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Science.

1 - I dated this woman once. She taught me a valuable lesson. She said that she can find good and bad in everything and that those who say something is either all good or all bad, should be ignored. I get that you don't like religion, but I assume that you do like reason and intellectual honesty. If you really think that there is no wisdom whatsoever in any religion, well, I'm just gonna listen to her advice.

2 - Religion IS a part of culture. I agree fully. It's a memeplex. A co-adapted meme complex. Entirely analagous to a co-adapted gene complex, like tetrapodism, or eyes, or the CNS. As for human sacrifice, no, I'm not going to argue that because that's called being trapped by an unfair frame.

3 - Not only is socially constructed reality supportable, I have supplied reams of support for it in this thread. But you didn't engage with a shred of it. Instead, you overlooked it, to be polite, and then pretend that it doesn't exist. If that's how you choose to roll, so be it. I no more fear your dismissal of socially constructed reality, than I fear Chas' dismissal of Universal Darwinism, or than I fear Fred Phelps' dismissal of evolution. I know that I have the facts on my side. As the saying goes, I'm on the right side of history.

Quote:The religious should be respected, as all humans should.

I am glad that we agree.

Comparing a religious person to a sociopath is hyperbole.

If you stand by your original statement, so be it. Clearly nothing I can say will change that. But if some religious person one day punches you in the teeth because they feel that you're being condescending, don't say that I didn't slide you a friendly warning Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

I'm not saying I have a well-honed comprehension of irony, but I think this might be a clue, considering the source. Laughat

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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20-12-2012, 01:40 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
LOL, some statements you have to counter, and some should just be left to fly into the æther.
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20-12-2012, 07:17 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
(19-12-2012 11:12 PM)Ghost Wrote:  1 - I dated this woman once. She taught me a valuable lesson. She said that she can find good and bad in everything and that those who say something is either all good or all bad, should be ignored. I get that you don't like religion, but I assume that you do like reason and intellectual honesty. If you really think that there is no wisdom whatsoever in any religion, well, I'm just gonna listen to her advice.

Wisdom is a deep understanding and realization of people, things, events or situations, resulting in the ability to apply perceptions, judgements and actions in keeping with this understanding. It often requires control of one's emotional reactions (the "passions") so that universal principles, reason and knowledge prevail to determine one's actions. Wisdom is also the comprehension of what is true coupled with optimum judgment as to action.

Yes I'd have to say religion has made us far too wise.

(19-12-2012 11:12 PM)Ghost Wrote:  2 - Religion IS a part of culture. I agree fully. It's a memeplex. A co-adapted meme complex. Entirely analagous to a co-adapted gene complex, like tetrapodism, or eyes, or the CNS. As for human sacrifice, no, I'm not going to argue that because that's called being trapped by an unfair frame.

It's not necessary to have it be apart of the culture at all.

(19-12-2012 11:12 PM)Ghost Wrote:  3 - Not only is socially constructed reality supportable, I have supplied reams of support for it in this thread. But you didn't engage with a shred of it. Instead, you overlooked it, to be polite, and then pretend that it doesn't exist. If that's how you choose to roll, so be it. I no more fear your dismissal of socially constructed reality, than I fear Chas' dismissal of Universal Darwinism, or than I fear Fred Phelps' dismissal of evolution. I know that I have the facts on my side. As the saying goes, I'm on the right side of history.

Socially constructed realities exist but do not make those people correct. For it's nature that we measure our thoughts against not the society. Facts are not voted into existence. Smartass

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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20-12-2012, 07:59 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
(20-12-2012 07:17 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Facts are not voted into existence. Smartass

Nicely put Yes

(EDIT: Unless we vote for a President, in which case the fact that he/she is President comes into existence lol)

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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20-12-2012, 08:54 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
Hey, fst.

I'm skipping your wisdom thing because that's just your opinion.

Quote:It's not necessary to have it be apart of the culture at all.

No. It isn't. Nobody ever said it was.

No trait is necessary. That's the genius of evolution. The traits that stick around are merely adaptive. Some become maladaptive and are simply circling the proverbial bowl on the way down.

But as I said before, life isn't about finding the one true way; the one trait that will work for everyone, in every situation, for all time, because that notion is a white whale. Anyone who has ever thought that they can find it, or worse, that they've captured it, has hurt others.

I mentioned it before but it bears repeating. The eugenicists felt that some traits didn't have to be in the species at all. Like retardation, or blackness, or non-Aryanness. We all know the result of their efforts. Suffering.

Does this mean hands off? Of course not. Competition is an integral part of evolution. Sometimes the lion gets the kill, sometimes the hyena, sometimes the leopard. But the leopards never line all of the lions up and execute them. That sort of behaviour, the exact type that most of the humans on this planet (the Annihilators) have been engaged in for 5 000 years, threatens everything. The emptied oceans, the strip mined hills, the toxic waste dumps, the freed carbon, the warming planet; all the consequence of an imbalance; where one species dominates and subjugates the rest. That is to be resisted if our species is to survive. Similarly, we cannot allow one culture to dominate, subjugate, assimilate or terminate any other culture. We need the balance of limited competition. Or we're just as doomed.

Quote:Socially constructed realities exist but do not make those people
correct. For it's nature that we measure our thoughts against not the
society. Facts are not voted into existence. [Image: smartass.gif]

You forget what George EP Box said. All models are wrong. Some are useful.

No one is correct. We cannot be. Because the only way we can interact with the world is through abstraction. This is Plato's great genius. All of our interactions with the world are mediated and we cannot interact with the world but through some system of mediation.

But some models are useful. Western medicine for example. Or rocket science. Or electronics. Or existentialism. Or meditation. Even conversing with the ancestors in the trees. We fall victim to ideological illusion when we mistake these fingers for the moon. Because they are not. You don't look at "H2O" and say, "See, that right there, that's water right there on the screen." Because it is not. It tells us a lot about water but it is not water itself. So it is with every single thought in your head.

We do not measure our thoughts against nature. Our thoughts themselves are merely our version of reality. This is not some metaphysical metaphor, it is biological fact.

Facts are very much voted into existence. This doesn't mean that there is zero link between what we consider to be true and that which exists objectively (assuming that it exists at all). It means that it is a relationship, a tenuous, mutable and at times arbitrary one. No one has it right. Right is the great lie. People simply manage to create some kind of meaning out of the whole thing.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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20-12-2012, 09:01 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
No one has it right, but some are more wrong than others.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-12-2012, 09:34 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
Hey, Chas.

If no one has it right, then no one has it right. Not a few people, no one. You're using the wrong metric. "Correct" is not what matters to humans. To some, like yourself, it is very important, but that's a cultural preference, not an absolute of human physiology. "Useful" or "adaptive" is what matters. Some truths may be more or less useful, but the metric for measuring usefulness is entirely subjective and utterly relative and does not require anything resembling accuracy as you and I understand it.

As for more wrong, say the question is 2+2= and the answers are: Q, a ham sandwich, Bob, I need to pee and 300 000 000. Is there somehow value in being less wrong? If the reason someone get's 2+2 wrong is because of a simple mistake, but otherwise their mathematical ability is solid, then sure, less wrong has meaning. But if the reason every single human on earth gets 2+2 wrong is because no one can grasp arithmetic, ever, then less wrong loses all meaning. Pissing contests of who is less wrong become comical, and would be comical, if not for the very real harm it causes.

That being said, if your goal is eliminating cancer, then a lumpectomy is more useful to you than leeches. But that's still culturally contingent because maybe eliminating cancer at all costs is important to your culture. But of what use is a lumpectomy to Bob Marley when not being cut open is more important than surviving cancer? What use is taxanomic nomenclature that separates all of the species, when your culture has a spiritual relationship with the forest and everything in it and considers the trees their brothers? But even with that, more or less wrong doesn't factor into it.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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20-12-2012, 10:00 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2012 10:24 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Respect for Religion
(19-12-2012 11:12 PM)Ghost Wrote:  I know that I have the facts on my side. As the saying goes, I'm on the right side of history.

Believing in "facts" is itself delusional. No such thing outside of a formal axiomatic framework. Ain't no fucking "facts" out here. All there is is consensus of interpretation. Ain't no fucking "facts" out here. Who the fuck made that shit up?

(20-12-2012 09:34 PM)Ghost Wrote:  As for more wrong, say the question is 2+2= and the answers are: Q, a ham sandwich, Bob, ...

You can stop right there, Bob is the answer. HoC and I instinctively understand this, you apparently don't.

Peace and Love and Empathy,
Bob

Breathing - it's more art than science.
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