Respect for Religion
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11-12-2012, 04:36 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
(11-12-2012 04:24 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Astray from what?

What is so detestable?
I've been wondering that too ever since Matt showed his detest for Sam Harris for the first time a long time ago.

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11-12-2012, 05:56 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
Hey, Vosur.

He's a demagogue who promotes rank bigotry in the name of scientific reason. He is a snake oil salesman and a damn good one. He is the embodiment of the father's lesson to the son in Thank You For Smoking.

These are my views. I only feel comfortable mentioning them here because he directly relates to respecting religions. I normally dislike bringing him up because it can derail a thread quickly. If you want to start another thread do discuss it, that's fine, but to be perfectly honest, I don't have a lot of my arguments at arms length because I've put him out of my mind. Somewhere in the recesses of this forum, I deconstructed the above TED Talk. So if you can find it, neat.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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12-12-2012, 10:21 AM
RE: Respect for Religion
(11-12-2012 05:56 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Vosur.

He's a demagogue who promotes rank bigotry in the name of scientific reason. He is a snake oil salesman and a damn good one. He is the embodiment of the father's lesson to the son in Thank You For Smoking.
What material of his are you referring to? Perhaps it is due to the fact that I haven't read/seen anything from him other than his debate with William Lane Craig about objective morality, his talk on the existence of free will and his commentary on the story of a scientist who claims to possess proof of an afterlife that I have a hard time understanding where you're coming from. With that said, I disagree with his position on morality and free will, but that's for another time.

(11-12-2012 05:56 PM)Ghost Wrote:  These are my views. I only feel comfortable mentioning them here because he directly relates to respecting religions. I normally dislike bringing him up because it can derail a thread quickly. If you want to start another thread do discuss it, that's fine, but to be perfectly honest, I don't have a lot of my arguments at arms length because I've put him out of my mind. Somewhere in the recesses of this forum, I deconstructed the above TED Talk. So if you can find it, neat.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
I'll see if I can find it.

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12-12-2012, 10:47 AM
RE: Respect for Religion
(12-12-2012 10:21 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-12-2012 05:56 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Vosur.

He's a demagogue who promotes rank bigotry in the name of scientific reason. He is a snake oil salesman and a damn good one. He is the embodiment of the father's lesson to the son in Thank You For Smoking.
What material of his are you referring to? Perhaps it is due to the fact that I haven't read/seen anything from him other than his debate with William Lane Craig about objective morality, his talk on the existence of free will and his commentary on the story of a scientist who claims to possess proof of an afterlife that I have a hard time understanding where you're coming from. With that said, I disagree with his position on morality and free will, but that's for another time.

(11-12-2012 05:56 PM)Ghost Wrote:  These are my views. I only feel comfortable mentioning them here because he directly relates to respecting religions. I normally dislike bringing him up because it can derail a thread quickly. If you want to start another thread do discuss it, that's fine, but to be perfectly honest, I don't have a lot of my arguments at arms length because I've put him out of my mind. Somewhere in the recesses of this forum, I deconstructed the above TED Talk. So if you can find it, neat.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
I'll see if I can find it.
If I recall correctly, Matt, one of his ideas that you particularly dislike is that moderate religion enables fundamentalism.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-12-2012, 11:11 AM
RE: Respect for Religion
Hey, Vosur.

The TED talk is a great example.

Hey, Chas.

Indeed.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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15-12-2012, 05:18 AM
RE: Respect for Religion
Hi Matt

sorry for the late answer had a lot to do. I am sorry that you are disappointed. But as I said in my posts, I would like to hear good reasons to respect a person who believes but if there are no good arguments for respecting their believe I can not.

Thanks for your time anyway.

Marcus
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15-12-2012, 02:24 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
(15-12-2012 05:18 AM)Marcus Wrote:  But as I said in my posts, I would like to hear good reasons to respect a person who believes but if there are no good arguments for respecting their believe I can not.

Isn't that the crux of the problem though? If we respect a person's religious beliefs, aren't we then disrespecting the person?

What I mean is that, like patting a child on the head and dismissing an error in their knowledge when they explain the rainbow fairies painting a rainbow, it shows an utter lack of respect for their ability to be recognized as an equal if we pat them on the head, smile, and "allow them their delusion."

If I, as a scientist and an intelligent person, said to you that someone with type-O blood can happily receive type-A blood, you'd show me the respect of saying, "Did you mean the recipient had AB?" You'd do me the courtesy of correcting me because you assume I'm bright enough and mature enough to handle it.

Sure, we don't need to become vitriolic, but I respect people enough to do them the courtesy of treating them like adults and discussing it. (Sure I have times of "just shut up and smile," and I have my immature moments and get snarky, or downright cruel, but even I have a "felgarcarb threshhold".)

No, I have no respect for religion per se, I respect my fellow humans enough to discuss it.
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15-12-2012, 08:14 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
Hey, ScienceGeek.

The history of the colonial era is a history of travesty after travesty. One of the biggest crimes was the constant cultural genocide. This is what Gene Roddenberry was on about with the Prime Directive; the importance of not interfering in other cultures. Not because they're one day going to be us, but because they need to forever be them.

The desire to tell other people how to think is patriarchal and imperialistic. It is a matter of domination. We know best, and you will agree with us whether you like it or not.

There is no one right world view. This is, as Wade Davis points out, the central revelation of anthropology. Any attempt to impose culture on others is not about helping them, it's about dominating them.

I think your metaphor is flawed. If we correct a child, we're correcting a member of our own culture. We're all born into a culture and we're all expected to be a part of it. If my child says something that runs counter to my culture's beliefs, I correct her, not because it's wrong as an absolute, but because it's wrong in my culture. If I correct my neighbour's child about something that's right in their culture and wrong in my own, I expect them to be furious with me because that's not right. They might not view the world the same as me.

So if some Amazonian tribesman tells me about the supernatural relationship between his people and the river, I'm not patting him on the head. It's nonsense in my culture, but it's the cornerstone of theirs. Know what I mean?

The blood type thing is a cultural thing. It's incorrect, not as an absolute, but within the context of our culture's world view. The very ideas of A and B blood might not exist in another culture.

Anyhoo, I just disagree with your thesis. I think that respecting another culture's beliefs is respecting the people in that culture. Not doing so says, "We know better." And that's not respectful at all.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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15-12-2012, 08:47 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
(15-12-2012 08:14 PM)Ghost Wrote:  The blood type thing is a cultural thing. It's incorrect, not as an absolute, but within the context of our culture's world view. The very ideas of A and B blood might not exist in another culture.

No, Matt, blood groups have objective reality. If the concept does not exist in a culture, they are either not transfusing or they are killing people.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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15-12-2012, 09:07 PM
RE: Respect for Religion
Hey, Chas.

1 - Quite clearly I said idea.

2 - Your issue seems to be with cultural relativity and the idea of socially constructed reality. If you reject either of those ideas, we will not agree on anything. Which is what it is. I'm just pointing out where the disconnect is.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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