Respecting The Truth
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01-01-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: Respecting The Truth
(01-01-2015 08:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I've tried unbelief for several years, I don't see how or why I would try it again.

So you are a theist then? If yes, I apologize to you and all for completely misunderstanding your previous posts, my bad.

(01-01-2015 08:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I do have an issue with the sort of atheism proposed by folks like Dawkins, and those who find kinship with him, that's one I wouldn't be able to try, because it all seems rather bizarre and weird to me.

Dawkins isn't a reasonist, but an ideologist. He's intent on duplicating many of the worst aspects of religion under a new flag. Sincere, but deluded.

I was on his forum for awhile, a few years back. He had allowed a viper's nest of really nasty atheist ideologues (nothing like this forum) to prosper there.

And then they turned their knives on HIM. Which freaked him the fuck out. He was too clueless to realize that atheist fundie hate is no different than theist fundie hate.

Dawkins is a master of marketing, and maybe science. After that, not so much.

(01-01-2015 08:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And in my view stems from atheists who have a hard time letting go of the evangelical spirit of the religions they have abandoned.

They want to be fundies, but Jesus isn't working for them anymore, so they find another vehicle for the fundie experience.

(01-01-2015 08:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Religions, like Christianity raise truth to the level of God himself, and holds beliefs that the truth will set you free, which for me would be rubbish, and just another myth, if I were a reflective non-believer.

Truth is God himself, should there be such a thing. But knowledge of truth is not. And everybody gets the two confused.

Truth is the real world, knowledge of truth is just a bunch of little symbols in our brain.

It's like the difference between your friend, and a photo of your friend. Everybody loves to argue about the "truth" photos, but they are just little pieces of paper, dead things.

(01-01-2015 08:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why should truth have such an esteemed status, where it seems to be placed over values such as happiness, or contentment?

What's far more rational than happiness and contentment is being able to yell, "FUCK THAT GOD SHIT, SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!!" while stamping one's little feet.

(01-01-2015 08:09 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The pursuit of a truth makes sense in a world with the lingering scent of divinity, in which it is intrinsically tied to goodness and liberation, to the good life itself. But in the absence of this, I don't see why many atheists seem to esteem the truth with the fervency of religious belief.

As a Fundamentalist Agnostic, I proclaim with a loud annoying fundie voice that the pursuit of truth still makes tons of sense, with or without religious views, which doesn't matter either way.

But we're all very confused about what truth is.

Truth is, for example, the planet Earth.

Not the word "Earth". Not opinions about Earth. Not facts about Earth. Those are just symbols, inventions of the tiny minds of a single tiny species.

Religion, atheism, philosophy, ideology, none of these things can touch the truth, because they're all made out of thought. It's all a huge very distracting squabble over nothing.
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01-01-2015, 09:08 AM
RE: Respecting The Truth
(01-01-2015 08:56 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  As a Fundamentalist Agnostic, I proclaim with a loud annoying fundie voice that the pursuit of truth still makes tons of sense, with or without religious views, which doesn't matter either way.

But we’re all very confused about what truth is.

I think you are right.

Quote:Truth is, for example, the planet Earth.

Not the word "Earth". Not opinions about Earth. Not facts about Earth. Those are just symbols, inventions of the tiny minds of a single tiny species.

This is a good example of the confusion of what “truth” is.

Planet Earth = Truth?

If you said we live on planet Earth, then yes, that is true.
If you said planet earth exist, then that is a truism as well.

Equating the planet itself as Truth? Not so much.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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01-01-2015, 09:36 AM
RE: Respecting The Truth
(01-01-2015 07:39 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(31-12-2014 07:33 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  While it is true that most atheists who read books aimed towards us, partake in conversations with humanists and communicate with other atheist communities share a far deeper respect for other humans than most theists do these days.

Catholic Charities (in the U.S.) is the second leading provider of social services to the needy after the federal government.

While we're here sitting on our fannies blowharding about the glories of atheism, millions of Catholics are quietly serving the least fortunate among us by donating their time and money.

Want to debunk the Catholics? Set up a competing charity system, and out spend them.

But of course we don't want to bother with all that, because after all, we're going to be so busy filling up the next few pages with snarky Catholic put downs!

You are so good at overblown rhetoric.

Who said anything about "the glories of atheism"? Hmm?

How about Médecins Sans Frontières? Save the Children? Unicef? Amnesty International?

The only blowhard here is you.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-01-2015, 09:52 AM
RE: Respecting The Truth
(01-01-2015 08:38 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(01-01-2015 08:21 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  We have one. It's called the Federal Government Wink

Also funded primarily by theists.

So the interesting question is: Do atheists punch above their weight or below their weight in this area?
And... why is that so?

Actually to be honest with you I live in a civilised country in a part of the world called not-america. I find the idea that people who need help should be reliant on the charity of the wealthy a little bit repulsive, and I think that the american religious system has a lot to do with perpetrating that condition. Conservative politicians in particular seem to see state help for those in need as being in competition with the actions of the church. Charity should have religious indoctrination attached God damn it. The state shouldn't just... help people. It's uncivilised. Right?

I think we as a society should agree for the most part the kinds of help we are willing to offer people and that we as a society work to ensure that that help is provided. Frankly reports that this or that religious group give more than this or that non-religious group don't tell me anything about the worth of that religion or religion in general. Instead, it seems to me an outworking not of the holy spirit but of the church propaganda machine.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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01-01-2015, 10:16 AM
RE: Respecting The Truth
(01-01-2015 01:10 AM)Gordon Wrote:  
(31-12-2014 06:24 PM)Free Wrote:  Therefore, I dare any theist who reads this to try atheism for 1 month. You will act and express yourself as an atheist here and in real life, and let's see if you have enough respect for the truth to walk on this side of the fence to see if there's any truth here.

And Happy New Year To All!

If atheism is true--if God does not exist--where's the virtue in knowing the truth?

The virtue is within the knowledge itself.

When you have knowledge of the truth, it of itself is virtuous.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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01-01-2015, 10:18 AM
RE: Respecting The Truth
Hafnof, the Catholic Charities thing is just a fact, that's all. It demonstrates only that religious people are capable of performing useful functions in society, as direct result of their religious beliefs.

A bunch of Catholic priests raped a bunch of children, and their bosses tried to cover it up. That's a fact too. In at least some cases, these rapes most likely occurred as a result of Catholic doctrine which requires "celibate" priests.

When I become Pope (stay tuned for the coming announcement) I will change that doctrine to suggest that any priest who wishes to remain celibate had just better learn how to celebrate masterbate. Perhaps we'll make this celebration part of the mass, I haven't decided yet.
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01-01-2015, 10:20 AM
RE: Respecting The Truth
(01-01-2015 09:52 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Actually to be honest with you I live in a civilised country in a part of the world called not-america. I find the idea that people who need help should be reliant on the charity of the wealthy a little bit repulsive...

Actually you live on a forum where you will likely find anything that anybody types to be repulsive. :-)

I can learn this quip thing, I can do it!!
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01-01-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Respecting The Truth
I think you already celebrate masturbation in your written output here.

And excusing endemic organisational paedophilia and a mass organised cover up of the same on catholic celibacy doctrine? Really?

That's a new low even for you.

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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01-01-2015, 10:26 AM
RE: Respecting The Truth
(01-01-2015 01:16 AM)Gordon Wrote:  
(31-12-2014 06:50 PM)Free Wrote:  Probably not, since most theists I have met don't have the courage to question what they believe.

You atheist idiot. [Image: angry-smiley.gif]

If you could only see the way I am tearing into my prior beliefs about salvation--beliefs I've held and taken for granted all my life.

Jesus told you the following:

Mat_7:7 Ask and it shall be given to you; seek and you shall find; knock and it shall be opened to you.

Joh_8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Keep seeking, Gordon, and someday you will know what atheists already know.

Quote:As an atheist, you have no need for the truth. There is no "good" in knowing the truth as an atheist. You might as well die after you breed and die sooner if no one will breed with you. That's all the hope there is in atheism. You don't need truth.

Only those who believe in God need to seek the truth.

All atheists ever do in regards to the question of existence is to look for any truth in any claim of existence.

When you claim that God exists, we have every right to expect observable evidence to support your claim because if we were to automatically accept your claim with no observable evidence, then you, all atheists, and everybody would be required to accept that any and all of the thousands of reported gods throughout history all exist.

Since there is no more observable evidence to support your god than there is to support Zeus, then what is the difference?

There is no difference, Gordon. None whatsoever.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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01-01-2015, 10:53 AM
RE: Respecting The Truth
(01-01-2015 10:20 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Actually you live on a forum where you will likely find anything that anybody types to be repulsive. :-)
I can learn this quip thing, I can do it!!

That's still a 4/10 for me. Keep working on it though. I think you need to incorporate more understanding of the character you are trying to satirise into your quip. For example, you could have worked my three-day diet and stout guzzling into this post[1]. That would have bumped it up to at least a 6 if you could add an original twist.

My suggestion in this case would be to simultaneously work in a bulimia and alcoholic theme. Extra points would be awarded for economically including a reference to 12 step programs and their controversial religious basis. A full 10/10 would require you also make a reference to catholic charity within a 15 word limit for the quip.

[1] http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid711211

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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