Response: Why There Is No Such Thing as a Good Atheist
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28-04-2015, 08:22 AM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2015 08:25 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Response: Why There Is No Such Thing as a Good Atheist
(28-04-2015 03:10 AM)TruthKiwi Wrote:  Morality may be logical, but logic does not equate to morality. The only way to make a logical moral argument is to presuppose morality and meaning to start with. Try making a logical argument that slavery is wrong without presupposing morality.

If I were a slave I would prefer not to be a slave, also I assume other human beings feel the same way for similar reasons, therefore we should treat them as we assume they want to be treated. Because after all, it’s only a matter of chance and circumstance who is on which end of the whip. 




lol, you presupposed the golden rule here, doing exactly what you thought you weren't doing, a morality that declares that if I do not desire to be a slave, I should not desire to enslave others. Your entire jump from an is to and ought, is predicated on presupposing a morality.
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28-04-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: Response: Why There Is No Such Thing as a Good Atheist
(28-04-2015 08:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-04-2015 03:10 AM)TruthKiwi Wrote:  Morality may be logical, but logic does not equate to morality. The only way to make a logical moral argument is to presuppose morality and meaning to start with. Try making a logical argument that slavery is wrong without presupposing morality.

If I were a slave I would prefer not to be a slave, also I assume other human beings feel the same way for similar reasons, therefore we should treat them as we assume they want to be treated. Because after all, it’s only a matter of chance and circumstance who is on which end of the whip. 




lol, you presupposed the golden rule here, doing exactly what you thought you weren't doing, a morality that declares that if I do not desire to be a slave, I should not desire to enslave others. Your entire jump from an is to and ought, is predicated on presupposing a morality.

And there is something wrong with the Golden Rule?
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28-04-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: Response: Why There Is No Such Thing as a Good Atheist
(28-04-2015 08:26 AM)Dusky Wrote:  
(28-04-2015 08:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  lol, you presupposed the golden rule here, doing exactly what you thought you weren't doing, a morality that declares that if I do not desire to be a slave, I should not desire to enslave others. Your entire jump from an is to and ought, is predicated on presupposing a morality.

And there is something wrong with the Golden Rule?

No. But the poster actually failed in his attempt: to try and make "a logical argument that slavery is wrong without presupposing morality.""
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28-04-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: Response: Why There Is No Such Thing as a Good Atheist
(28-04-2015 08:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-04-2015 03:10 AM)TruthKiwi Wrote:  Morality may be logical, but logic does not equate to morality. The only way to make a logical moral argument is to presuppose morality and meaning to start with. Try making a logical argument that slavery is wrong without presupposing morality.

If I were a slave I would prefer not to be a slave, also I assume other human beings feel the same way for similar reasons, therefore we should treat them as we assume they want to be treated. Because after all, it’s only a matter of chance and circumstance who is on which end of the whip. 




lol, you presupposed the golden rule here, doing exactly what you thought you weren't doing, a morality that declares that if I do not desire to be a slave, I should not desire to enslave others. Your entire jump from an is to and ought, is predicated on presupposing a morality.

It's called empathy, and it's an evolved trait.

Atheism is the only way to truly be free from sin.
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28-04-2015, 08:39 AM
RE: Response: Why There Is No Such Thing as a Good Atheist
(28-04-2015 03:30 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Fucking hell, he's so full of shit for the entire article. Not only that, but he's presupposing that objective meaning and morality exists. This premise, which is asserted but never substantiated, is complete and utter bollocks. Take that assumption away and his entire house of cards collapses.

That was kind of the point of the article right?

That moral realism, objective morality is unsubstantiated, that it's complete and utter bullocks, particularly if we are to presuppose that the picture painted by ontological naturalism is true.

In fact the writer and responder of the OP both hold to a similar "unsubstantiated" belief, in objective morality, supposed moral facts:

As per the OP: "“the ability to suffer” + “a cause of suffering” = “objectively bad”."

The OP presupposes an objective moral bad, in regards to suffering.
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28-04-2015, 08:48 AM
RE: Response: Why There Is No Such Thing as a Good Atheist
(28-04-2015 08:28 AM)Colourcraze Wrote:  
(28-04-2015 08:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  lol, you presupposed the golden rule here, doing exactly what you thought you weren't doing, a morality that declares that if I do not desire to be a slave, I should not desire to enslave others. Your entire jump from an is to and ought, is predicated on presupposing a morality.

It's called empathy, and it's an evolved trait.

So the golden rule is an evolved trait, that human history is suggestive of a failure to adhere to it?

Empathy is an evolved trait for creatures whose history is scarred primarily by our lack and failure to be empathetic? A history marred with indifference and cruelty in copious amounts, one of moral failings. That we evolved to be, something we're quite far from actually being?
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28-04-2015, 08:53 AM
RE: Response: Why There Is No Such Thing as a Good Atheist
(28-04-2015 08:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-04-2015 08:26 AM)Dusky Wrote:  And there is something wrong with the Golden Rule?

No. But the poster actually failed in his attempt: to try and make "a logical argument that slavery is wrong without presupposing morality.""

You've been talking to Stevil for too long.

Preservation of the species is a basic instinct, as is self preservation.

Everything is covered by those facts, including the conflict.

That is all. Drinking Beverage

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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28-04-2015, 09:04 AM
RE: Response: Why There Is No Such Thing as a Good Atheist
His first premises stating what atheism is dependent on fails simply because an atheist only means 'someone who lacks a belief in gods.'

Even going forward, he already presupposes that there must be some objective morality and that evolution bringing up empathy somehow is being put forward as objective morality. Quite the opposite. It's objective in the sense it can be observed and measured, but it's not universally equivalent. It's why everyone would answer differently to those moral riddles, ie, "Train can't stop, you have to choose a track. Would you run over the 10 prisoners or your good friend?"

I never fucking understand why there must exist objective morals for people like him.
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28-04-2015, 09:07 AM
RE: Response: Why There Is No Such Thing as a Good Atheist
(28-04-2015 08:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-04-2015 08:28 AM)Colourcraze Wrote:  It's called empathy, and it's an evolved trait.

So the golden rule is an evolved trait, that human history is suggestive of a failure to adhere to it?

Empathy is an evolved trait for creatures whose history is scarred primarily by our lack and failure to be empathetic? A history marred with indifference and cruelty in copious amounts, one of moral failings. That we evolved to be, something we're quite far from actually being?

We are successfully empathetic toward our offspring, family, and "our own," which is all our genes need of us to proliferate. Later attempts at legislating empathy have been moderately successful, but, yes, there is still conflict between us. As far as history goes, there have been horrible things and amazing things. I don't think I would call all of human history a moral failing.

Atheism is the only way to truly be free from sin.
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28-04-2015, 09:11 AM
RE: Response: Why There Is No Such Thing as a Good Atheist
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