Revelation Chapter 1
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23-10-2012, 11:05 PM
Revelation Chapter 1
A Response To The Skeptic's Annotated Bible

[SAB] Revelation 1:5-7 "Jesus ... washed us ... in his own blood."

Response: It is interesting that the SAB has this listed under cruelty and violence. What Jesus' having washed us in his own blood actually means is that he gave his life for us, and according to the Bible there is no greater love than that. (John 15:13) Part of the reason the skeptic sees the sacrifice of blood as barbaric is due to their lack of understanding. The Bible teaches that the soul is in the blood of any living creature. The soul, which is life, is sacred. (Leviticus 17:11, 14) Jehovah is the source of life and so man himself can't replace the life which he takes. So, when God gave man permission to eat meat it was with the stipulation that the blood be poured back on the ground, representing that the soul - the life, belonged to God. (Psalm 36:9 / Ezekiel 18:4 / Genesis 9:5-6 / Deuteronomy 12:15-16)

Since the soul and life were sacred the blood of a murdered person defiled the earth, and only by spilling the blood of the murderer could the defilement be cleansed. (Numbers 35:19-21 / Numbers 35:31, 33) When a body was found murdered and it wasn't known who the murderer was the city nearest to the site was blood guilty, and a sacrifice must be made to remove the blood guilt. (Deuteronomy 21:1-9)

The temporary sin removing feature of the Law covenant, which was validated by the blood of animals, was only a foreshadow of the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, because, only through the perfect sinless sacrifice of Christ could the perfect state of life before the sin of Adam be had. (Hebrews 9:13-14)

[SAB] "Every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him."

Millions have lived and died without ever seeing him coming "with clouds."

Response: Not everyone, just those who, like in the days of Noah, ignore the warning. If his coming with the clouds is meant to be taken literally how could those which had pierced him, now long dead, literally see him coming along with the rest of those living at that time? Jesus spoke of his presence in these times as being evident through signs (Matthew 24:30) and as theologian R. Govett, in 1864 put it: "This seems to me very decisive. The giving a sign of the Presence shows that it is secret. We need no signal to make known to us the presence of what we see." The storm clouds of the time of his presence is like in the days of Noah. A warning to those who are paying attention and though seen by all, ignored by most.

[SAB] "He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him."

Everyone will see Jesus descend from the sky. Such an event would only be possible on a flat earth.

Response: It wouldn't be possible for everyone to see Jesus descend from the sky on a flat earth, either. Not for those who were more than a short distance away, or on the other side of mountains or trees or in houses. The Greek word parousia literally means "being alongside," rather than a simple arrival. Josephus used the Greek parousia to indicate God's invisible presence signified by lightning and thunder (Jewish Antiquities, III, 80 (v.2)) and Paul used the related term pareimi (present) to indicate his presence in spirit though not in body. (1 Corinthians 5:3) The Bible writers didn't believe the earth was flat (See Isaiah 40:22, where the Hebrew word chugh, meaning "circle," or "sphere" is used) though that wouldn't matter anyway. The presence of Christ isn't a literal or physical coming to earth in human form.

[SAB] "Every eye shall see him."

Well, not according to the Jehovah's Witnesses, anyway. Even though Matthew 24:30 says he'll return "on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory" and this verse says that "every eye shall see him," The Governing Body claims that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 without clouds, glory, or being seen by anyone.

Response: I can't speak for the JW's, but as far as I know they don't believe that Jesus' presence, as such, began at that time. They believe that his presence is a turning of his attention to earth long after the establishment of his Kingdom in 1914. The 1999 Watchtower of May, 1, pages 12-13, paragraph 19 says of Matthew 24:30: "Note that Matthew 24:29-31 foretells that (1) the Son of man comes, (2) this coming will be with great glory, (3) the angels will be with him, and (4) all the tribes of the earth will see him. Jesus repeats these elements in the parable of the sheep and the goats. (Matthew 25:31-46) Hence, we can conclude that this parable deals with the time, after the opening outbreak of tribulation, when Jesus will come with his angels and sit down on his throne to judge. (John 5:22; Acts 17:31; compare 1 Kings 7:7 / Daniel 7:10, / Daniel 7:13-14 / Daniel 7:22, 26 / Matthew 19:28.) Who will be judged, and with what result? The parable shows that Jesus will give attention to all nations, as if they were assembled right before his celestial throne."

[SAB] Revelation 1:13-16 Jesus has white hair, eyes of fire, feet of brass, and has a sword sticking out of his mouth.

Response: The Book being symbolic, gives Jesus with white hair, which of course, represents wisdom. (Proverbs 16:31) Eyes of fire represent a searching. If dark eyes meant an inability to see then eyes of fire would likely symbolize an alertness, keen sight and the ability to perceive and so judge. (Romans 11:10) The sword reference is later explained in Revelation 19:15: "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

Jesus, as the Word (or representative) of Jehovah, who will pronounce judgments upon the nations; of the wicked; the sword, then, protruding from his mouth is a fitting symbol.

The brass mentioned in the KJV reads copper in most modern translations because the modern day brass alloy of copper and zinc wasn't known in Bible times so the "brass" in the KJV refers to any copper alloy aside from zinc. Copper and tin for example, being bronze, is common in ancient findings with a 2 to 18 percent tin. The Bible typically represents the divine with gold and the human with copper. The foot typically figuratively represented the path that one took, if it was good or bad. (Psalm 119:59 / Romans 3:15) and when walking upon holy ground one was to remove their sandals. (Exodus 3:5) So the brass feet of Jesus in Revelation 1:15 says a great deal about what is going on. Jesus walking upon holy ground as a tested human judge for the sake of bringing righteousness to mankind in the name of Jehovah.

[SAB] "He had in his right hand seven stars."

Jesus holds seven stars in his hand. Of course, it is possible that this is metaphorical. Perhaps. But it is clear from other verses ( Revelation 6:13; 8:10; 12:4) that John thought of stars as being small, perhaps even small enough for Jesus to hold in his hand.

Response: The meaning of the seven stars is explained in verse 20. "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

That is to say that in the seven congregations Jesus has full control and direction. The body of elders have his favor in each of the congregations. Also see Revelation 2:1. Jesus is the head of the congregation, and they shine as candles in a dark world. Stars are used metaphorically throughout the Bible. For example, the righteous shine like stars (Daniel 12:3) and the falling or dimming of stars and the sun and moon represents a dark period. (Isaiah 13:10 / Ezekiel 32:7)

[SAB] Revelation 1:18 "I [Jesus] ... have the keys of hell and of death."

Response: Listed under cruelty and violence. That is odd to me. Jesus having the keys to hell (from the Greek haides, meaning the unseen resting place of the dead) and death itself represents that he will take away death and raise the dead. (John 5:24-29)
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23-10-2012, 11:48 PM
RE: Revelation Chapter 1
As no one knows who wrote the book of Revelations, and we know that the men who compiled the bible were liars and fabricators of history, why, oh why, would you bother to take it seriously? Is it not only for one or some of the following reasons?

- a lot of other people believe too (argumentum ad numerum),
- or authoritative people believe (argumentum ad verecundiam),
- or it is a very popular belief (argumentum ad populum)
- or it is a very old belief (argumentum ad antiquitatem),
- or the belief has been repeated often (argumentum ad nauseam),
- or they are afraid of the consequences of not believing (argumentum ad baculum)
- or they think it has not yet been proven false (argumentum ad ignorantiam.)

None of these reasons are based on a rational examination of facts.

Give me one solid rational reason why the book is not bullshit before you start boasting about its contents.
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24-10-2012, 04:11 AM
RE: Revelation Chapter 1
(23-10-2012 11:48 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Give me one solid rational reason why the book is not bullshit before you start boasting about its contents.

There is nothing that I could say to you that wouldn't do anything but give you the opportunity to say more of what you have already said. No facts, no evidence, no reason. Not because there are none, but because you won't listen to even the possibility.
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24-10-2012, 04:20 AM
RE: Revelation Chapter 1
(24-10-2012 04:11 AM)The Theist Wrote:  There is nothing that I could say to you that wouldn't do anything but give you the opportunity to say more of what you have already said. No facts, no evidence, no reason. Not because there are none, but because you won't listen to even the possibility.

Then why make this thread?
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24-10-2012, 04:26 AM
RE: Revelation Chapter 1
(24-10-2012 04:20 AM)caffeinesoul Wrote:  
(24-10-2012 04:11 AM)The Theist Wrote:  There is nothing that I could say to you that wouldn't do anything but give you the opportunity to say more of what you have already said. No facts, no evidence, no reason. Not because there are none, but because you won't listen to even the possibility.

Then why make this thread?

Am I to only consider contributing a thread that Mark would respond positively to?
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24-10-2012, 04:33 AM
RE: Revelation Chapter 1
You think Mark is the only person who's gonna respond that way? Who in their right mind is going to listen to you if you're gonna say things like:

"There is nothing that I could say to you that wouldn't do anything but give you the opportunity to say more of what you have already said. No facts, no evidence, no reason. Not because there are none, but because you won't listen to even the possibility."

Are you going to give that response to everyone who criticizes what you say, without addressing any of it? Are you telling me that you're making this thread for people who will agree with you? What's the point?
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24-10-2012, 05:03 AM
RE: Revelation Chapter 1
Thank you David A Theist.
That's a nicely put together piece of work.

Gotta say though that you started to lose me at ...
(23-10-2012 11:05 PM)The Theist Wrote:  ... according to the Bible ...
then compounded that with...
Quote:... The Bible teaches ...

But this bit was spot on...
Quote:white hair, which of course, represents wisdom.

Then you get all bibley again
It feels like I'm reading a review of a review of XP and Vista when Windows 7 (the Quran) has been in operation successfully for some time.

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24-10-2012, 05:31 AM
RE: Revelation Chapter 1
Btw, if you want to tell us who has been filling your head with all this stuff, we'll sort them out for you, if you know what I mean.

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24-10-2012, 05:44 AM
RE: Revelation Chapter 1
(24-10-2012 05:31 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Btw, if you want to tell us who has been filling your head with all this stuff, we'll sort them out for you, if you know what I mean.

Thanks DLJ, but I'm done here. I'm just going to move on.
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24-10-2012, 06:33 AM
RE: Revelation Chapter 1
(24-10-2012 04:26 AM)The Theist Wrote:  
(24-10-2012 04:20 AM)caffeinesoul Wrote:  Then why make this thread?

Am I to only consider contributing a thread that Mark would respond positively to?

That might make a very good guideline. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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