Revenge
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08-11-2015, 06:35 PM
RE: Revenge
(08-11-2015 06:01 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Acting like a bully won't help kids grow up and become responsible adults. It will make them bullies themselves. People in the military seem to fail to see that.

Have you heard of something called "breaking the cycle"?
It seems that these grunts are trained to obey, and no-one really cares that the culture somehow encourages them to remain immature, vindictive and petty.

Perhaps that is what chain of command want. A bunch of people that are happy to follow, happy to do as they are told and who are ill equipped to be leaders or to make mature decisions.

Grunts are expendable, their purpose is to do as they are told, it is of no concern that they come out of service lacking real world soft skills.

One has to wonder, how these people present themselves abroad? Whether they are able to represent their country in a way that is respectful and understanding of other cultures, whether they are going to treat others with respect and intelligence or whether they are going to continue to behave in an immature, petty and violent way, well above and beyond what a situation requires.

Gungho is a guaranteed way to make enemies.
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08-11-2015, 07:47 PM
RE: Revenge
The gungho attitude of the military (sweeping generalization, I know) is one of the reasons I was never really interested. I can't get excited about putting warheads on foreheads for some reason. To each his own I guess...

A man should not believe in an ism, he should believe in himself. -Ferris Bueller

That's what a ship is, you know. It's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs but what a ship is... what the Black Pearl really is... is freedom. -Jack Sparrow
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08-11-2015, 07:56 PM
RE: Revenge
(08-11-2015 07:47 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  The gungho attitude of the military (sweeping generalization, I know) is one of the reasons I was never really interested. I can't get excited about putting warheads on foreheads for some reason. To each his own I guess...
I was considering joining the airforce when I was younger. I sat the tests and passed them, but possibly fucked up the interview.

They asked me if I had reservations.
I said although I'd love to fly jet planes I wouldn't be keen on dropping bombs on people.

I'm guessing they perhaps want people that might get excited about the prospect of dropping bombs.

Anyway, I didn't make it into the airforce, the budget was pulled and no-one got in that year.
I probably wouldn't have lasted in the services anyway, I don't like to be told what to do and I'm too opinionated. I'm not cut out to be a tool rather than a thinking person.
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08-11-2015, 07:56 PM
RE: Revenge
(08-11-2015 06:35 PM)Stevil Wrote:  One has to wonder, how these people present themselves abroad? Whether they are able to represent their country in a way that is respectful and understanding of other cultures, whether they are going to treat others with respect and intelligence or whether they are going to continue to behave in an immature, petty and violent way, well above and beyond what a situation requires.

You are under some huge misunderstanding that military personnel are sent out to be some sort of junior ambassadors, to create understanding, goodwill and love among the people of the world..........................

Um..... NO???

They're trained, funded, and expected to blow shit up, kill whatever needs killing, and generally wreck havoc, where havoc is needed....................

...

And that's not just the US military.... it's EVERY military, of every country....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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08-11-2015, 08:06 PM
RE: Revenge
(08-11-2015 07:56 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(08-11-2015 06:35 PM)Stevil Wrote:  One has to wonder, how these people present themselves abroad? Whether they are able to represent their country in a way that is respectful and understanding of other cultures, whether they are going to treat others with respect and intelligence or whether they are going to continue to behave in an immature, petty and violent way, well above and beyond what a situation requires.

You are under some huge misunderstanding that military personnel are sent out to be some sort of junior ambassadors, to create understanding, goodwill and love among the people of the world..........................

Um..... NO???

They're trained, funded, and expected to blow shit up, kill whatever needs killing, and generally wreck havoc, where havoc is needed....................

...

And that's not just the US military.... it's EVERY military, of every country....
Is that all you do?
Run around screaming and shooting?

I don't believe it. I'd expect that the majority of the time you aren't engaged in combat, but you are occupying "foreign territory"

In my opinion, for what little it is worth, the best value you can offer is presenting a kind and considered face to the locals. Helping to give a perception that your country aren't the monsters they are taught to believe you are.

Just because you have the guns and the power position, it doesn't mean that your actions wont come back to bite the next generation.


I understand that you are putting your lives on the line, I understand that it is tough and that I can't truly comprehend what it is like. Which is why I say my opinion may be worth little. But I am offering it, because it is how I feel right now. rightly or wrongly it is my current ignorant opinion.
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08-11-2015, 08:09 PM
RE: Revenge
(08-11-2015 07:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(08-11-2015 07:47 PM)Imathinker Wrote:  The gungho attitude of the military (sweeping generalization, I know) is one of the reasons I was never really interested. I can't get excited about putting warheads on foreheads for some reason. To each his own I guess...
I was considering joining the airforce when I was younger. I sat the tests and passed them, but possibly fucked up the interview.

They asked me if I had reservations.
I said although I'd love to fly jet planes I wouldn't be keen on dropping bombs on people.

I'm guessing they perhaps want people that might get excited about the prospect of dropping bombs.

Anyway, I didn't make it into the airforce, the budget was pulled and no-one got in that year.
I probably wouldn't have lasted in the services anyway, I don't like to be told what to do and I'm too opinionated. I'm not cut out to be a tool rather than a thinking person.

When I enlisted in the Air Force, I had and expressed something of a similar reservation. I was told that the Air Force didn't want robots, it wanted problem-solvers. Such was borne out by my experience therein; most often, my orders were what to do, but the "how" was left up to me. And there were only one or two of my NCOs who resented questions.

On deploying for Desert Storm, I didn't hide my skepticism about the rationale behind the war, but suffered no ill effects, indeed I made E-4 ten months early.

I think there's a general misconception in the civilian sector about some elements of military service, and this is one of them, in part. It's true that I wasn't in a combat unit, where such attitudes as you mentioned may be more widespread.
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08-11-2015, 09:19 PM (This post was last modified: 08-11-2015 09:36 PM by yakherder.)
RE: Revenge
I've been at both ends of the military spectrum. I started out as a Navy cryptologist doing computer geek shit in windowless COMMINT installations and ended up as a mountain warfare specialized Army cavalry scout. And for the record, despite actually losing money on travel expenses now that I'm a weekend warrior going to my monthly drills in a different country than I live, I still manage to make more than both of my parents combined and without a college degree, the point being that you can't make a blanket generalization on how poorly veterans do in the civilian world. Some do well, some don't. And here I thought colleges nowadays taught about stuff like stereotyping :/ Guess I was wrong.

Anyhow, a couple random thoughts...

• Many people aren't so familiar with some of the positives of military leadership, either because they just don't know or because they choose to ignore that which doesn't fit into the standard narrative. For example: When it comes time to eat, in the military upper ranks do not get priority. The sergeants make sure every one of their privates gets fed, our Lieutenants make sure their NCO's get fed, etc. If I, as an NCO, were to pull rank and cut in front of one of my privates in the chow line, or grab an MRE out in the field before making damn sure my privates out standing watches had theirs first, I'd likely receive the same wrath from my peers as the guy who screwed up onlinebiker's cheap beer machine. We are aggressive, forceful, and harsh, but that in and of itself is not the same as being a bully. We have an agenda that is not inherently self serving, and we will achieve it at all costs. A bully might use some of the same methods, but their methods are inherently self serving. In this world, the needs of the group come first. If you lack the ability to put the needs of the group first and continually make a habit of causing problems for others in order to achieve your own needs, you will not be accepted into that exclusive group. You're better off getting out and going to college, where you'll be coddled and people will be forced to treat you fairly so you never have to be troubled with the inconvenience of solving your own problems.

• I don't give a flying fuck what lazy people who think they should succeed just because they've decided they deserve to think of me. One of my first jobs after getting back to the states from what I'll call my extended working vacation in China, and one of my first real jobs since leaving my first stint in the military, was doing convention setup at a major event center in Las Vegas. Many of my peers fit the above mentioned category. They did the minimum in order to earn their paycheck and not get fired, and depended on the union and seniority to make sure they got an occasional pay raise or promotion. When I came in all "gung ho," yes, I made enemies pretty quick. They would say stupid shit like "Hey, you're not in the military anymore. Slow down, you're making us look bad. We're paid by the hour, and we get more overtime if we make the work last longer."

Understandable, I suppose, but I wasn't there to impress them, nor did I have the inclination to wait for my seniority to build in order to get ahead of these boring, energy lacking individuals. So I made them look bad, some of them hated me for it, I got promoted, they didn't. Some of them would even complain to the union about how it wasn't fair that people with so much less seniority than them were promoting ahead of them. Whatever. Why should I care about their approval if earning it is counterproductive to my goals or, for that matter, the goals of the group? I am a tool. We all are. Humans are, by definition, social creatures, not individuals. Whether in the military or in the civilian world, I enjoy being an effective tool as opposed to being a worthless, broken tool.

• Having experienced both worlds, the ability to speak freely and openly is one of the things I like the most about the military that the civilian world lacks, not the other way around as many who don't know any better might assume. My civilian counterparts are on the constant lookout for something to be offended by. Every word you speak has to be filtered through an often irrational standard of political correctness. In the military, a world where people get their asses kicked, their cars pissed in, their new ranks tenderized until their arm changes purple, and their wings hammered into their chest until their uniform is soaked from their own blood (just kidding, of course, hazing doesn't happen anymore Shocking ), I can be relatively certain that if they're still around they have the balls to hear mere words and not get all offended by them for no reason. I don't have that freedom in the "real" world. Say the wrong thing, even if it's what needs to be said, and you'll get dropped like a sack of potatoes. That's not just aggravating, it's inefficient and stifles creativity in finding solutions to problems.

• I was micromanaged more in intel than I am in combat arms. Working at a COMMINT facility, for example, half the damn base were high ranking officers and 6 figure making civilian contractors. It was extremely top heavy, and you couldn't fart without someone telling you what it smelled like, how you did it wrong, and what you should do to make it stinkier next time. As a scout, however, we're given a mission, we head out, and we might be out for a few days solving whatever problems we come across on our own without any specific direction from higher ups. Even our lowest ranking privates have to learn to be leaders pretty damn quick because if shit goes wrong, that teenage private may suddenly find himself the most senior person in a squad in the middle of a shit storm. Even if the higher ups want to micromanage, they can't do it from back at the FOB, or even from a different squad a hundred meters away.

'Murican Canadian
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08-11-2015, 10:15 PM
RE: Revenge
Definitely true about the no-PC bullshit. We were expected to take both good and bad news, good and bad reports, good and bad reviews with equanimity -- military bearing.

If something offense you, tough shit.
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08-11-2015, 10:21 PM
RE: Revenge
(08-11-2015 09:19 PM)yakherder Wrote:  Some of them would even complain to the union about how it wasn't fair that people with so much less seniority than them were promoting ahead of them.
I don't like unions, I haven't had the misfortune to work for a company drowning under union pressure and I have never been a union member.

But my point was that if people are trained or brought up in an environment where pissing in a workmates car is seen as acceptable practice then they ain't going to be effective in the real world. They will likely be fired and potentially get a criminal record. Certainly mature leaders don't behave this way. It is more thuggery than respectable citizen.

I've never been hushed in the business world, I've always been able to speak my mind. However, in saying that, I have had a builder come to a dinner at my place (a boyfriend of a friend) and the garbage that comes out his mouth (sexism, racism etc) certainly wouldn't be tolerated in a corporate environment. I'm all for PC.

My (long distance) impression of Obama, given that he is the leader of an aggressive war-mongering country is that he is much, much better than Bush. Obama seems to show that he has respect for other cultures, where as Bush was of the opinion that USA is Good and other cultures are Bad, I think on the world scene Obama give the impression of an ambassador and Bush as a warlord. Obama's leadership is wasted if his army when abroad are warmongers rather than ambassadors.
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08-11-2015, 11:06 PM
RE: Revenge
We all have different faces we put on for different people, whether it's our coworkers, our buddies, or our parents. The military is no different. Deep down I may resent some of the changes I have to make, but when I'm talking to people at my civilian job, whether superiors or subordinates, or my girlfriend, or my kids, I know better than to talk the same as I do when I'm on the firing range. That's just common sense (I'd like to think), and this kind of discretion is necessary for all people in all professions. True, some are better at it than others. I went from the military to teaching English to kindergartners in China and did fine. The guy who replaced me when I left was an education major from Denmark, and the teachers I stayed in contact with tell me he lasted about a week because he didn't know how to talk to kids.

And it's not the majority of the country that is aggressively war mongering, just a small percentage of people. Like me, for example Tongue. But since passive people are usually passive, it's not too difficult to just walk around them. Such is life.

'Murican Canadian
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