Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
01-07-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 01:28 PM)Free Wrote:  That's why they forged the life of Jesus. They embellished it to make the religion more attractive to the Greeks, who believed in numerous gods.
They didn't embellish did they? They created epistles and inserted text relating to jesus into existing documents. That's not embellishing. They created jesus. They gave him the Earthly existence that he never had. Those that didn't believe the straw man that had been created were murdered, raped, pillaged and enslaved by christians. You murdering bastards killed millions that didn't believe over the centuries. Not bad for a sect that believes in love, understanding and forgivness.

(01-07-2015 01:28 PM)Free Wrote:  You need to distinguish between a mere man and the Christian superman who had his life embellished.

You need to learn to distinguish between a real person and the straw man jesus that was created.

(01-07-2015 01:28 PM)Free Wrote:  As far as contemporaries are concerned, Paul was a contemporary. But guess what? Paul does not mention any miracles performed by Jesus. He talks about a man who was crucified, and tells us that he knew nothing else:

Paul would have been a contemporary had jesus existed. Little wonder that Paul and jesus never met.

(01-07-2015 01:28 PM)Free Wrote:  You do of course understand that the "bible" is a compilation of numerous books that were all independent of each other before they were compiled into the bible, right?

You do of course understand that the bible is the biggest lie in the history of Man. It is full of evil, is self-contradictory and is designed to assist those who would control man. It is an abomination.

(01-07-2015 01:28 PM)Free Wrote:  The letters of Paul do not confirm the embellishments of the life of Jesus as written in the Gospels. All they do is confirm that he was a man who was crucified, and also shed light on Paul's beliefs that Jesus was raised from the dead.

Carrier argues that when Paul talks about jesus, in the epistles that weren't forged by christians, he was talking about a mythical being, not a real person.

Marburg virus, Ebola, Rabies, HIV, Smallpox, Hantavirus, Dengue Fever all brought to you by god - who cares for us and loves us all Censored
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes god has no twitter account's post
01-07-2015, 04:33 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 03:21 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You wish. That's not "it". If, as Dr. BB Scott has clearly demonstrated, Paul thought that Jesus was an apocalyptic hero, in the Jewish hero tradition, then, (as Ehrman has clearly demonstrated, "exaltation" is NOT "risen from the dead", in our way of thinking. All you know Free, is a VERY limited Fundie version of Chriatianity, (for some strange reason). Paul never met, not talked about Jesus the man. Only the "risen Christ" (which should be translated the "exalted" Christ).
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

More utter bullshit.

Romans:

4:24 alla kai di hmaV oiV mellei logizesqai toiV pisteuousin epi ton egeiranta ihsoun ton kurion hmwn ek nekrwn

4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-)rise (again, up), stand, take up.

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebible...45C004.htm

Try harder.

Thumbsup

Raise up = "exalted" in the Jewish apocalyptic tradition, (not the "presentist" *raised from the dead*). AND BTW, Free, YOU FAILED to explain why Josephus would do the Testimonium I provided. In fact you can't even begin to address the matter that it's obviously a Christian FAITH statement. "Raised up" to a Jew at this time meant "exalted" just like the rest of the apocalyptic heroes. Obviously your knowledge of this period is VERY wanting.

Anyone reading this know who has to "try harder".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
01-07-2015, 04:43 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
This controversy has been going on for over 300 years. Bottom line, anything Josephus wrote, or that a later Christian inserted, is nothing more than hearsay. We have no accounts from the time of Jesus.

Perhaps one day something may turn up. Until then.....

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2015, 04:46 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2015 04:49 PM by Free.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 03:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 01:05 PM)Free Wrote:  But guess what? No one has ever proven forgery or partial interpolation regardless of what you or the consensus says. What you have in Ch 18 is all you get. You do not get to claim forgery when you have no evidence to support it. The consensus cannot even verify partial interpolation because they also have no evidence to support that position either.

To quote someone (umm would that be YOU ??) "You're full of shit and you know it" Big Grin

The earliest extant copy is in the Museo Ambrosiano in Milan. It's from AFTER the 16th Century.

The earliest complete Greek manuscript of the Antiquities dates from the eleventh century, the Ambrosianus 370 (F 128); preserved in the Biblioteca Ambrosiana in Milan.

Quote:1. The early Christian writers never mention it.

Argument from Silence. Josephus was writing for the Romans, not the Christians.

Quote:2. It does not flow with the text above or below it.

Yes it does. The text above, and the text below, both deal with the actions of Pontius Pilate, and so does the TF.

You are seeing things from an anti-Christian perspective, looking for ways to discredit it. You think its about Jesus, when the truth of the matter is that Josephus is continuing on about the exploits of Pilate.

Meir writes: the passage about Jesus is placed in a context of Pontius Pilate's governorship of Judea;

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/testimonium.html

And it flows beautifully together.

Quote:3. It's in different handwriting and different ink. (Yes I have seen it).

FALSE.

There is no evidence of that whatsoever.

Quote:4. No matter what you claim about "no evidence" there is all kinds of evidence right there. You just won't accept it. Or, as it's beginning to look, you just don't KNOW about it ???? So now, concensus with Tacitus must be accepted, but concensus with respect to Josephus is not.

I have not said that I do not accept the consensus on Josephus, which incidentally Louis H. Feldman surveyed the relevant literature from 1937 to 1980 in Josephus and Modern Scholarship. Feldman noted that 4 scholars regarded the Testimonium Flavianum as entirely genuine, 6 as mostly genuine, 20 accept it with some interpolations, 9 with several interpolations, and 13 regard it as being totally an interpolation.

39 scholars agree that something was originally written about Jesus. 13 regard it as a wholesale interpolation.

I already said I agree with the 39 scholars, the consensus. You don't seem to understand that regardless of whether or not I agree or disagree, it will not change the fact that every last one of us is merely expressing an opinion that is not actually based upon a shred of tangible evidence.

Oh sure, people have an opinion on what they believe is evidence, but again that is just an opinion and everybody has a different one. Nobody can make the positive claim that their opinions on the TF actually represent direct evidence of complete forgery or partial interpolation.

Doing so would only constitute a complete and total lie.

Go here to see what the scholars really say. Pay attention to Steve Mason, my former professor. He actually provides a valid opinion supporting both authenticity and forgery. Quite interesting.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/testimonium.html

Quote: You are hysterical. There is literary AND physical evidence for interpolation.

No. There are OPINIONS supporting everything from complete authenticity to total forgery, with many qualified opinions contracting other qualified opinions.

The bottom line is that nobody has ever conclusively proven forgery or even partial interpolation.

So get honest about it, for fuck sakes.

Back later.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2015, 04:58 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2015 05:02 PM by Free.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 04:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  More utter bullshit.

Romans:

4:24 alla kai di hmaV oiV mellei logizesqai toiV pisteuousin epi ton egeiranta ihsoun ton kurion hmwn ek nekrwn

4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-)rise (again, up), stand, take up.

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebible...45C004.htm

Try harder.

Thumbsup

Raise up = "exalted" in the Jewish apocalyptic tradition, (not the "presentist" *raised from the dead*). AND BTW, Free, YOU FAILED to explain why Josephus would do the Testimonium I provided. In fact you can't even begin to address the matter that it's obviously a Christian FAITH statement. "Raised up" to a Jew at this time meant "exalted" just like the rest of the apocalyptic heroes. Obviously your knowledge of this period is VERY wanting.

Anyone reading this know who has to "try harder".

Says the one who is attempting to apply ancient Jewish comprehension to Greco-Roman Christian perspectives.

You are conflating two distinct cultures. It doesn't fucking matter in the slightest what the ancient Jews believed or understood, because we are not dealing with what they believed.

We are dealing with a religious movement that occurred in the Greco-Roman culture called Christianity. This was a culture distinct from the Jews in Judea; distinct from the church of Jerusalem, and distinct from anything else wholly Jewish.

We are dealing with Greek and Latin texts, not Hebrew and Aramaic.

And that is exactly where you are going so horribly wrong.

Josephus wrote in the Greek language for the Roman culture, NOT in the Hebrew for the Jewish culture.

And that ... is that.

Thumbsup

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2015, 05:08 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 04:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  More utter bullshit.

Romans:

4:24 alla kai di hmaV oiV mellei logizesqai toiV pisteuousin epi ton egeiranta ihsoun ton kurion hmwn ek nekrwn

4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-)rise (again, up), stand, take up.

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebible...45C004.htm

Try harder.

Thumbsup

Raise up = "exalted" in the Jewish apocalyptic tradition, (not the "presentist" *raised from the dead*). AND BTW, Free, YOU FAILED to explain why Josephus would do the Testimonium I provided. In fact you can't even begin to address the matter that it's obviously a Christian FAITH statement. "Raised up" to a Jew at this time meant "exalted" just like the rest of the apocalyptic heroes. Obviously your knowledge of this period is VERY wanting.

Anyone reading this know who has to "try harder".
If I remember correctly, the word "egeiro" could also mean figuratively to raise from obscurity or non-existence. Sounds like it could mean someone made something up.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2015, 06:49 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2015 08:17 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  Argument from Silence. Josephus was writing for the Romans, not the Christians.

Exactly. And if he was trying to show that Vespasian was the messiah, why in hell would he say someone else was, someone who was "more than a man", and rose from the dead ?
Get your head out of your ass. You're just making yourself look stupid now.

(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes it does. The text above, and the text below, both deal with the actions of Pontius Pilate, and so does the TF.

It does NOT. The text above and below deal with the Christians as causing riots. Nice try. Liar.

(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  You are seeing things from an anti-Christian perspective, looking for ways to discredit it. You think its about Jesus, when the truth of the matter is that Josephus is continuing on about the exploits of Pilate.

Don't patronize me old man. Don't tell me what I think. You have enough problems with yourself, obviously. The entire paragraph is about Jesus the Christ. Don't be stupid.

(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  [quote]3. It's in different handwriting and different ink. (Yes I have seen it).
FALSE.

There is no evidence of that whatsoever.

Fucking idiot. I've been there. I've seen it. You have not. The consensus of historians agrees it is. Lying again.

(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  I have not said that I do not accept the consensus on Josephus, which incidentally Louis H. Feldman surveyed the relevant literature from 1937 to 1980 in Josephus and Modern Scholarship. Feldman noted that 4 scholars regarded the Testimonium Flavianum as entirely genuine, 6 as mostly genuine, 20 accept it with some interpolations, 9 with several interpolations, and 13 regard it as being totally an interpolation.

You said there was "NO evidence at all for it". Liar. Now you say it's not a settled matter ?

(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  Oh sure, people have an opinion on what they believe is evidence, but again that is just an opinion and everybody has a different one. Nobody can make the positive claim that their opinions on the TF actually represent direct evidence of complete forgery or partial interpolation.

You said there was NO evidence. Now you changed your mind. And then you talk about lying. Hahaha.

(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  The bottom line is that nobody has ever conclusively proven forgery or even partial interpolation.

So get honest about it, for fuck sakes.

It's "for fuck's sake", not "fuck sakes". Tongue
Look who's talking. So now there may be some evidence. LOL

(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  Says the one who is attempting to apply ancient Jewish comprehension to Greco-Roman Christian perspectives.

Says the idiot who said "James was a JEW" and refused to accept any other context for the line in Chapter 20.

(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  You are conflating two distinct cultures. It doesn't fucking matter in the slightest what the ancient Jews believed or understood, because we are not dealing with what they believed.

Yes we are. The first Christians were JEWS (as was Paul), and thus everything they said has to be interpreted in that context.

(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  We are dealing with Greek and Latin texts, not Hebrew and Aramaic.

The people who cooked up the new cult were not Greek and Roman. "This is where you go so horribly wrong" Snort.

(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  And that ... is that.

You keep doing that. Stomping your little foot thinking your nonsense ends the discussion. Hahaha. It doesn't.

You don't even get it. You are like so many classical dabbling amateurs in history who think because they know about Greece and Rome that endows them magically with a knowledge of the Near East, it's culture and history. Guess what ? It doesn't. Save your nonsense for Sunday School. You are good at that.

Thumbsup

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2015, 07:09 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 11:06 AM)Free Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 10:51 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  Or did he?

Yet again Carriers assertions of interpolation are without a shred of evidence for support. Just another Jesus Mythicist using denialism.

He also ignores the fact that Josephus wrote before Tacitus. So did Clement.

Go buy more of his books. He needs the money.

Thumbsup



Apparently you really are as stupid as you sound.

Don't feel bad. Most jesus freaks are. You'll fit right in with the flock.

[Image: sheep.jpg]

You ignore one forgery by citing two more!

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2015, 07:31 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 05:08 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 04:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Raise up = "exalted" in the Jewish apocalyptic tradition, (not the "presentist" *raised from the dead*). AND BTW, Free, YOU FAILED to explain why Josephus would do the Testimonium I provided. In fact you can't even begin to address the matter that it's obviously a Christian FAITH statement. "Raised up" to a Jew at this time meant "exalted" just like the rest of the apocalyptic heroes. Obviously your knowledge of this period is VERY wanting.

Anyone reading this know who has to "try harder".
If I remember correctly, the word "egeiro" could also mean figuratively to raise from obscurity or non-existence. Sounds like it could mean someone made something up.

Except for the fact that the context explicitly says "raised from the dead."

Just thought I'd toss in that marvellous little gem.

Carry on.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-07-2015, 07:41 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 07:31 PM)Free Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 05:08 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  If I remember correctly, the word "egeiro" could also mean figuratively to raise from obscurity or non-existence. Sounds like it could mean someone made something up.

Except for the fact that the context explicitly says "raised from the dead."

Just thought I'd toss in that marvellous little gem.

Carry on.

You really don't get it. At all. You should read B.B. Scott's "The Trouble with Resurrection". Exaltation (just LIKE ALL THE OTHER DEAD APOCALYPTIC HEROES) makes perfect sense, (but ONLY if you know something about that culture). You're little gem is poop. Just proves you are ignorant of Hebrew culture.

And BTW, from : http://vridar.org/2015/01/16/fresh-evide...a-forgery/

"The narrative grammar of the Testimonium Flavianum sets it sharply apart from Josephus’s other stories of the procuratorship of Pontius Pilate. The most likely explanation is that the entire passage is interpolated, presumably by Christians embarrassed at Josephus’s manifest ignorance of the life and death of Jesus. The Jewish Antiquities would in this respect be consistent with the other chronicler of this age, Josephus’s contemporary and rival historian, Justus of Tiberias, who wrote a history of this period that conflicted with Josephus and claimed Josephus’s version to be self-serving. Justus’s work has not survived, but we know from other sources that he wrote in great detail about the exact period of Tiberius’s reign that coincided with Jesus’s ministry – and that he did not mention Jesus.13 Outside the Gospels, there is no independent contemporary (i.e., first century CE) account of these events. The silence of other commentators, and the absence of any mention of the Testimonium by Christian writers for two full centuries after Josephus, even when engaged in fierce polemic about Jesus, are strong indications that the passage was not present in Josephus’s own extraordinarily detailed account of this period. The activities of a religious fanatic who moved around Galilee and Judaea preaching a gospel of peace and salvation, was said to have performed miracles, was followed by crowds of thousands of adoring disciples, and within the space of a few hours invaded the hallowed grounds of the Temple, was hauled up before the Sanhedrin, tried by King Herod, interrogated by Pontius Pilate and crucified, all amid public tumult, made no impression on history-writers of the period.

13. We know this because Photius, the ninth century patriarch of Constantinople, who read Justus’ works, found it remarkable that he did not mention Jesus, and commented on it."

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: