Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
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01-07-2015, 07:56 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 06:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 04:46 PM)Free Wrote:  Argument from Silence. Josephus was writing for the Romans, not the Christians.

Exactly. And if he was trying to show that Vespasian was the messiah, why in hell would he say someone else was, someone who was "more than a man", and rose from the dead ?
Get your head out of your ass. You're just making yourself look stupid now.

War of the Jews was published when Josephus was under the rule of Vespasian in AD 75.

Josephus never explicitly named Vespasian as a Messiah or a Christ.

In fact, according to both Tacitus (Tacitus, Histories 5.13) and Suetonius (Life of Vespasian 4.5), this so-called prophecy of the Jews was widely known among the Greco-Romans before Josephus ever wrote War of the Jews.

It wasn't Joseph who originated the interpretation of that Jewish prophecy, as it was already widely known. Josephus was repeating what was already in the culture.

But you do not see Josephus explicitly naming Vespasian as Christ or as Messiah, now do you?

Now who's making themselves look stupid? Certainly isn't me.

Carry on.

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01-07-2015, 08:15 PM (This post was last modified: 01-07-2015 11:56 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 07:56 PM)Free Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 06:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Exactly. And if he was trying to show that Vespasian was the messiah, why in hell would he say someone else was, someone who was "more than a man", and rose from the dead ?
Get your head out of your ass. You're just making yourself look stupid now.

War of the Jews was published when Josephus was under the rule of Vespasian in AD 75.

Josephus never explicitly named Vespasian as a Messiah or a Christ.

In fact, according to both Tacitus (Tacitus, Histories 5.13) and Suetonius (Life of Vespasian 4.5), this so-called prophecy of the Jews was widely known among the Greco-Romans before Josephus ever wrote War of the Jews.

It wasn't Joseph who originated the interpretation of that Jewish prophecy, as it was already widely known. Josephus was repeating what was already in the culture.

But you do not see Josephus explicitly naming Vespasian as Christ or as Messiah, now do you?

Now who's making themselves look stupid? Certainly isn't me.

Carry on.

Thumbsup

Who cares about the prophecy crap. The first Christians were JEWS, and remained Jews for hundreds of years. Josephus (according to Seutonius) declared that Vespasian was a "patron" and his "savior". (Suetonius, Vesp. 18) Good enough for me. He certainly as a JEW was not going on about Jesus as the messiah.

Edit : As for the Romans who cares about the prophecy timing. All that mattered is that they either said they believed it, to use it, or actually did buy into it. See below.

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01-07-2015, 08:33 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 08:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 07:56 PM)Free Wrote:  War of the Jews was published when Josephus was under the rule of Vespasian in AD 75.

Josephus never explicitly named Vespasian as a Messiah or a Christ.

In fact, according to both Tacitus (Tacitus, Histories 5.13) and Suetonius (Life of Vespasian 4.5), this so-called prophecy of the Jews was widely known among the Greco-Romans before Josephus ever wrote War of the Jews.

It wasn't Joseph who originated the interpretation of that Jewish prophecy, as it was already widely known. Josephus was repeating what was already in the culture.

But you do not see Josephus explicitly naming Vespasian as Christ or as Messiah, now do you?

Now who's making themselves look stupid? Certainly isn't me.

Carry on.

Thumbsup

Who cares about the prophecy crap. The first Christians were JEWSW, and remained Jews for hundreds of years. Josephus (according to Seutonius) declared that Vespasian was a "patron" and his "savior". (Suetonius, Vesp. 18) Good enough for me. He certainly as a JEW was not going on about Jesus as the messiah.

Josephus owed his life to Vespasian.

But Josephus never once named Vespasian as a Christ or a Messiah. He never assigned that title to him at all.

I agree the TF looks suspect, but our opinion of what we think about it will never change the fact that it exists, and we know it existed as far back as Eusebius' quote of it circa AD 315, some 225 years after Josephus wrote Antiquities.

Personally I don't like it. It sucks. But it's there, and that's the way it is, and all our opinions of it being a forgery or partial interpolation prove absolutely nothing.

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01-07-2015, 11:45 PM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2015 12:05 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 08:33 PM)Free Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 08:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Who cares about the prophecy crap. The first Christians were JEWS, and remained Jews for hundreds of years. Josephus (according to Seutonius) declared that Vespasian was a "patron" and his "savior". (Suetonius, Vesp. 18) Good enough for me. He certainly as a JEW was not going on about Jesus as the messiah.

Josephus owed his life to Vespasian.

But Josephus never once named Vespasian as a Christ or a Messiah. He never assigned that title to him at all.

I agree the TF looks suspect, but our opinion of what we think about it will never change the fact that it exists, and we know it existed as far back as Eusebius' quote of it circa AD 315, some 225 years after Josephus wrote Antiquities.

Personally I don't like it. It sucks. But it's there, and that's the way it is, and all our opinions of it being a forgery or partial interpolation prove absolutely nothing.

Unfortunately for you, you are once again totally, utterly incorrect, and not only that you seem utterly non-conversant with important themes both in Roman and Jewish history, and that they related to each other. Consider There was a fairly well known prophecy "There shall a star come out of Jacob etc." and a number of your little Roman heroes actually bought into it, including Josephus. There actually was a LOT of discussion about it.

Cassius' ("Roman History"), Josephus, ("Jewish War"), Suetonius, ("Life of Vespasian"), Tacitus, (Annals), Tacitus, ("Histories"), Zonaras, ("Epitome") all mention Vespasian as a fullfillment of that Balaam prophecy : "A star shall come out of Jacob and a scepter will rise out of Israel. It shall crush the foreheads of Moab and break down all the sons of Sheth. Edom shall be dispossessed. (Numbers 24.17-19)"

In 64 CE there appeared the first of two comets. One was seen in late 64 (Tacitus, Annals, 15.47), the second, in 69, mentioned by Cassius' "Roman History, 65-66.1.4). Many Jews held that the "messiah" would liberate Israel from Rome. Josephus said otherwise, and that HE found the real meaning meaning of the prophecy : "What did the most to induce the Jews to start this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth. The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. (Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 6.312-313) ... THIS in effect is a claim on behalf of Vespasian for messiah status, and only a liar would try to deny it.

So as you can see, incorrect again sir, it would be best if you stopped making assertions about that which you have no clue(s). Tongue

And actually both Suetonius and Tacitus said the SAME thing : "There had spread over all the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated for men coming from Judaea to rule the world. This prediction, referring to the emperor of Rome -as afterwards appeared from the event- the people of Judaea took to themselves. (Suetonius, Life of Vespasian 4.5) and "The majority [of the Jews] were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world. This mysterious prophecy really referred to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, true to the selfish ambitions of mankind, thought that this exalted destiny was reserved for them, and not even their calamities opened their eyes to the truth. (Tacitus, Histories 5.13)"

Josephus' thought (or was "paid to think") that Jewish nuts (zealots) had ruined Israel, and the Romans had been sent by God to punish them as he had sent Pompey before to do the same thing. He felt the Roman emperor Vespasian had been sent to "purify" Israel as had been done by the Exile, (and Egypt long before). This "punishment" was a way (he thought) to restore the true Israel. Calling a "foreigner" a "messiah" was something they had seen, as when Cyrus the Great had been called one. So this was nothing new.

Oh wait. I almost forgot.
"And THAT is THAT".
Facepalm

Actually it isn't "that". Because now with that in place one can see how it actually starts to make some rational sense finally, all the things that seemed so "wacky" that Fulton has been saying all along. The first reaction is "What ? Romans involved in messiah shit". Well in fact they were. Deeply involved and they very well understood the power of the idea and it's possible use to control Jews. The topic of messiah status was obviously something they were very used to talking about, and what it meant, and how to use it.

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02-07-2015, 03:09 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2015 07:58 AM by god has no twitter account.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
Christianity in a nutshell:

So god wakes up one morning 13.8 billion or 6,000 years ago, depending upon your belief system, and, for some unexplained reason, creates the universe. Why at that particular time is unexplained.

Who created god is another issue that is unexplained.

On day 2, god creates night and day but, guess what?, even though he is knowledgeable and powerful enough to create a universe, he appears not to understand the nature of the light that he created because he didn’t create the Sun and the stars until day 4. Why is unexplained.

Even though he is powerful enough to create a universe, he’s knackered by day 7 and has to take a day off. Why is unexplained.

In a rather ordinary and obscure part of the universe, he decides to create life, including Man. Why in that particular part of the universe is unexplained.

Then, he turns himself into a ghost and rapes some virgin. Why turn himself into a ghost is unexplained. Why he decides to rape that particular virgin on that particular day is unexplained.

The virgin that he rapes is called Mary. Not only did the ghost rape Mary, he wasn’t wearing a condom and she wasn’t on the pill so she got pregnant and had jesus. I say virgin but, actually, she isn’t. Yes, I know it says so in the bible but that’s just in the Latin versions which started to appear in the 4th century AD. In the original Aramaic script, it says that jesus was born of Alma. Alma is a young woman, not a virgin. The error, deliberate or otherwise, occurred when the bible was translated from Greek, the scholarly language of the day, into Latin. Why wasn’t the error corrected? Well, jesus, born of a virgin certainly is better for the future christian religion than jesus, born of a young girl. It lends jesus a certain je ne sais quoi, don’t you think?

Then, jesus wanders through Galilee performing all sorts of miracles. He preaches to crowds of 5,000. He preaches in temples when he was young. He upturns the Usurer’s tables outside of the temples and yet, even though the area was governed by Romans who were fond of using their stylus, not one word is written about jesus whist he is still alive. Why they are strangely silent on this matter is completely baffling and completely unexplained and, I suspect, unexplainable.

To cut a long story short, jesus is crucified.

Then, he comes back from the dead.

Then, there’s absolutely nothing for 60 years when, all of a sudden, documents forged by christians start to turn up eg. Epistles that Paul supposedly wrote, but didn’t. Quite why the need for christians to forge documents is unexplained. Quite why, if jesus existed, would you need to create a life for him is unexplained.

Then, god, being all powerful, all knowing, all seeing and all hearing decides that he wants Man to build temples so that they can go inside them and pray to him. Quite why is unexplained.

Then, some people refuse to build temples and pray to god so his christian supporters go on a 2,000 year rampage and they murder, rape, pillage and enslave millions of people even though they claim to be loving, peaceful, understanding and forgiving. Quite why is unexplained.

Then, christianity becomes the richest entity on the planet, even though it says in the bible that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god. Quite why is unexplained.

In fact, there’s too much about this evil fuckin’ religion which ISN’T explained.

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02-07-2015, 07:52 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2015 07:59 AM by Free.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(01-07-2015 11:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 08:33 PM)Free Wrote:  Josephus owed his life to Vespasian.

But Josephus never once named Vespasian as a Christ or a Messiah. He never assigned that title to him at all.

I agree the TF looks suspect, but our opinion of what we think about it will never change the fact that it exists, and we know it existed as far back as Eusebius' quote of it circa AD 315, some 225 years after Josephus wrote Antiquities.

Personally I don't like it. It sucks. But it's there, and that's the way it is, and all our opinions of it being a forgery or partial interpolation prove absolutely nothing.

Unfortunately for you, you are once again totally, utterly incorrect, and not only that you seem utterly non-conversant with important themes both in Roman and Jewish history, and that they related to each other. Consider There was a fairly well known prophecy "There shall a star come out of Jacob etc." and a number of your little Roman heroes actually bought into it, including Josephus. There actually was a LOT of discussion about it.

Cassius' ("Roman History"), Josephus, ("Jewish War"), Suetonius, ("Life of Vespasian"), Tacitus, (Annals), Tacitus, ("Histories"), Zonaras, ("Epitome") all mention Vespasian as a fullfillment of that Balaam prophecy : "A star shall come out of Jacob and a scepter will rise out of Israel. It shall crush the foreheads of Moab and break down all the sons of Sheth. Edom shall be dispossessed. (Numbers 24.17-19)"

In 64 CE there appeared the first of two comets. One was seen in late 64 (Tacitus, Annals, 15.47), the second, in 69, mentioned by Cassius' "Roman History, 65-66.1.4). Many Jews held that the "messiah" would liberate Israel from Rome. Josephus said otherwise, and that HE found the real meaning meaning of the prophecy : "What did the most to induce the Jews to start this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how, about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth. The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. (Flavius Josephus, Jewish War 6.312-313) ... THIS in effect is a claim on behalf of Vespasian for messiah status, and only a liar would try to deny it.

And yet here we do not ever see Josephus, nor anyone else for that matter, ever- not even once- entitling Vespasian as Messiah or Christ.

Do we?


And only a liar would deny that obvious and conclusive fact.

Quote:So as you can see, incorrect again sir, it would be best if you stopped making assertions about that which you have no clue(s).

No.

My point is quite simple. Josephus never entitled Vespasian as a Christ or Messiah.

Did he? Please show me where he did that.

Please show me one ancinet record of Vespasian ever wearing the title of Christ or Messiah.

In fact just to drive the point home extremely hard ...

Please show me one ancient text where the title of Christ was ever applied to anyone other than a person named Jesus. In fact, I challenge everyone reading this thread to produce one example of an ancient text where anyone other than Jesus was ever entitled as Christ.

Good luck with that Bucky boy. Let's see who is really being honest here. Me, or you and your little band of desperate conspiracy theorists.

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How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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02-07-2015, 08:17 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
Hey Free

Have you no shame?

This is the year 2015, not 1015.

The world is moving on. We are ceasing to believe in sky wizards and virgin births yada yada.

If I believed in that shyte, I'd be too ashamed to admit it and tell someone.

If you wanna stay in never, never land, that's your call.

The world is moving on. It's gonna leave you behind.

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02-07-2015, 08:20 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2015 08:29 AM by Free.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 08:17 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Hey Free

Have you no shame?

This is the year 2015, not 1015.

The world is moving on. We are ceasing to believe in sky wizards and virgin births yada yada.

If I believed in that shyte, I'd be too ashamed to admit it and tell someone.

If you wanna stay in never, never land, that's your call.

The world is moving on. It's gonna leave you behind.

And of course the signature at the bottom of all my posts never told you what my stance is on religion?

Idea

You really don't have a clue what we are actually talking about here, do you? Laughat

Dude I am a full 7.0 Atheist on the Dawkins Scale, and everyone here knows it.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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02-07-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 08:20 AM)Free Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 08:17 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Hey Free

Have you no shame?

This is the year 2015, not 1015.

The world is moving on. We are ceasing to believe in sky wizards and virgin births yada yada.

If I believed in that shyte, I'd be too ashamed to admit it and tell someone.

If you wanna stay in never, never land, that's your call.

The world is moving on. It's gonna leave you behind.

And of course the signature at the bottom of all my posts never told you what my stance is on religion?

Idea

You really don't have a clue what we are actually talking about here, do you? Laughat

I thought it was like you - one big fuckin' jokeBig Grin

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02-07-2015, 08:32 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 08:28 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 08:20 AM)Free Wrote:  And of course the signature at the bottom of all my posts never told you what my stance is on religion?

Idea

You really don't have a clue what we are actually talking about here, do you? Laughat

I thought it was like you - one big fuckin' jokeBig Grin

Dude, I do not go out of my way to be liked by little old you. I don't know you, and don't really care about you. After all, who the fuck are you?

So, if you think I am some sort of joke just because I refuse to subscribe to your logically fallacious employment of reason and logic, then all that does is reaffirm by initial impressions about you.

Which, of course, are not favorable.

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How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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