Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
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02-07-2015, 09:53 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 09:37 AM)Free Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 09:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Prove it. All of it.

You have NO POLLS of any scholars or even ONE piece of evidence to back up even ONE of those assertions. They are YOUR insane opinions and you cannot provide ANY support for even one of them.

See Bucky, this is why I can't take you seriously. You see things from only one side of the coin because you focus on one thing only. What that means is that you do not do the research to verify what the truth actually is:

There is near unanimity among scholars that Jesus existed historically. This is well known, and stated by such respected scholars in the field as Eahrman, Price, and yes, even your hero Richard Carrier.

Here's a short list of many of those scholars:

JD Crossan, M Borg, EP Sanders, J Meier and NT Wright, Geza Vermes, R Bauckham, C Evans, J Dunn, M Hengel, P Fredriksen, D Allison and B Chilton, Steve Mason, Alice Wheatley, Joseph Hoffmann, Louis H. Feldman, John P. Meier, James H. Charlesworth, Gerd Theissen, Annette Merz.

There's 21 just off the top of my head. Of course this is a sampling of the hundreds of others.

Now, let's put you to teh test.

Please find just 5 accredited historians who support Jesus Mythicism.

I'll start you off:

Richard Carrier, Earl Doherty (who has not once produced any evidence of his credentials), ....


Go!

Note: Did you notice that I didn't use the 150 scholars from the Jesus Seminar?

Thumbsup

So then. You have no idea what you're on about. That's what I thought.

You make assertions and use numbers you just make up and pull out of your ass.
You HAVE NO POLL. All you have is your exaggerated opinions of your own position, which you attyempt to support by making assertions about majority positions that have actually NEVER been polled.

I actually DO think Jesus may have existed. YOUR arguments for that position, however, are crap, which you showed us yesterday. Carrier's arguments for his positions are not. (And where he lives, or what he lives in, ... which YOU felt was important enough to mention) are totally irrelevant.

You are a mediocre debater. But one thing I do have to give you. You DO know how to attempt deflection. Laugh out load . Laugh out load . Thumbsup

And THAT is THAT.

Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-07-2015, 09:59 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 09:37 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 08:41 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  (1) I don't agree that it was 60 years after Jesus's death (whether or not that really happened) before any writings about him appeared. It may have been that long for the Gospels and the forged Epistles, but most Biblical scholars agree that the authentic Epistles of Paul (1 & 2 Corinthians, Romans, etc.) were written circa AD 50-55, or within 20-25 years of the commonly accepted date of Jesus' death.

When I stated that the first texts relating to jesus didn't appear until 60 years after his death, I qualified it with the statement: external to the bible.

Actually, you didn't. Here is a direct quote from the post I was responding to:

Quote:To cut a long story short, jesus is crucified.

Then, he comes back from the dead.

Then, there’s absolutely nothing for 60 years when, all of a sudden, documents forged by christians start to turn up eg. Epistles that Paul supposedly wrote, but didn’t. Quite why the need for christians to forge documents is unexplained. Quite why, if jesus existed, would you need to create a life for him is unexplained.

The only specific documents you refer to are forged Epistles, which are in the Bible. I see nothing about any non-Biblical documents. You might have meant "external to the Bible", but that's not what you said.
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02-07-2015, 10:00 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2015 10:17 AM by god has no twitter account.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 09:37 AM)Free Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 09:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Prove it. All of it.

You have NO POLLS of any scholars or even ONE piece of evidence to back up even ONE of those assertions. They are YOUR insane opinions and you cannot provide ANY support for even one of them.

See Bucky, this is why I can't take you seriously. You see things from only one side of the coin because you focus on one thing only. What that means is that you do not do the research to verify what the truth actually is:

There is near unanimity among scholars that Jesus existed historically. This is well known, and stated by such respected scholars in the field as Eahrman, Price, and yes, even your hero Richard Carrier.

Here's a short list of many of those scholars:

JD Crossan, M Borg, EP Sanders, J Meier and NT Wright, Geza Vermes, R Bauckham, C Evans, J Dunn, M Hengel, P Fredriksen, D Allison and B Chilton, Steve Mason, Alice Wheatley, Joseph Hoffmann, Louis H. Feldman, John P. Meier, James H. Charlesworth, Gerd Theissen, Annette Merz.

There's 21 just off the top of my head. Of course this is a sampling of the hundreds of others.

Now, let's put you to teh test.

Please find just 5 accredited historians who support Jesus Mythicism.

I'll start you off:

Richard Carrier, Earl Doherty (who has not once produced any evidence of his credentials), ....


Go!

Note: Did you notice that I didn't use the 150 scholars from the Jesus Seminar?

Thumbsup

You don't get it still, do you?

Try and keep up, boy. I'll try and type this S L O W L Y so that you can understand.

If people believe jebus existed, they don't go looking for evidence to the contrary and, shock, horror, they don't find any and and so people continue to believe that jebus existed.

Now, enter Carrier.

With me so far?

Now Carrier says to himself, maybe this jeebus guy never really had an earthly existence based on the other things that I've found out. Now let's take a fresh look at the evidence and see if he really existed or whether people wanted us to think that he existed. Now, the evidence tells us that jeebus was the creation of people who wanted us to believe in the new christian religion. They gave jeebus the deity and earthly existence.

Now, boy, do you see?

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02-07-2015, 10:05 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2015 10:10 AM by god has no twitter account.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 09:59 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 09:37 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  When I stated that the first texts relating to jesus didn't appear until 60 years after his death, I qualified it with the statement: external to the bible.

Actually, you didn't. Here is a direct quote from the post I was responding to:

Quote:To cut a long story short, jesus is crucified.

Then, he comes back from the dead.

Then, there’s absolutely nothing for 60 years when, all of a sudden, documents forged by christians start to turn up eg. Epistles that Paul supposedly wrote, but didn’t. Quite why the need for christians to forge documents is unexplained. Quite why, if jesus existed, would you need to create a life for him is unexplained.

The only specific documents you refer to are forged Epistles, which are in the Bible. I see nothing about any non-Biblical documents. You might have meant "external to the Bible", but that's not what you said.

Ah, sorry. The above is part of a number of posts of mine on the same subject. In several of the earlier posts, I specified that I was referring to non-biblical texts. I didn't feel it necessary to keep repeating myself. Perhaps I should have done.

Again, in the earlier posts, I specifically refer to the texts of Josphus and Tacitus. Again, I didn't feel it necessary to keep repeating myself. Perhaps I should have done.

Love 15.

There again, perhaps the onus was on you to familiarise yourself with this thread prior to comment.

15 all.

I presume that a draw is acceptable?

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02-07-2015, 10:05 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 09:53 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 09:37 AM)Free Wrote:  See Bucky, this is why I can't take you seriously. You see things from only one side of the coin because you focus on one thing only. What that means is that you do not do the research to verify what the truth actually is:

There is near unanimity among scholars that Jesus existed historically. This is well known, and stated by such respected scholars in the field as Eahrman, Price, and yes, even your hero Richard Carrier.

Here's a short list of many of those scholars:

JD Crossan, M Borg, EP Sanders, J Meier and NT Wright, Geza Vermes, R Bauckham, C Evans, J Dunn, M Hengel, P Fredriksen, D Allison and B Chilton, Steve Mason, Alice Wheatley, Joseph Hoffmann, Louis H. Feldman, John P. Meier, James H. Charlesworth, Gerd Theissen, Annette Merz.

There's 21 just off the top of my head. Of course this is a sampling of the hundreds of others.

Now, let's put you to teh test.

Please find just 5 accredited historians who support Jesus Mythicism.

I'll start you off:

Richard Carrier, Earl Doherty (who has not once produced any evidence of his credentials), ....


Go!

Note: Did you notice that I didn't use the 150 scholars from the Jesus Seminar?

Thumbsup

So then. You have no idea what you're on about. That's what I thought.

You make assertions and use numbers you just make up and pull out of your ass.
You HAVE NO POLL. All you have is your exaggerated opinions of your own position, which you attyempt to support by making assertions about majority positions that have actually NEVER been polled.

I actually DO think Jesus may have existed. YOUR arguments for that position, however, are crap, which you showed us yesterday. Carrier's arguments for his positions are not. (And where he lives, or what he lives in, ... which YOU felt was important enough to mention) are totally irrelevant.

You are a mediocre debater. But one thing I do have to give you. You DO know how to attempt deflection. Laugh out load . Laugh out load . Thumbsup

And THAT is THAT.

Tongue

As expected, in atypical Jesus Mythicist fashion, you ignored my list and also the 150 scholars from the Jesus Seminar.

We call this Denialism.

Chem Trails anyone? Laughat

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02-07-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 10:00 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 09:37 AM)Free Wrote:  See Bucky, this is why I can't take you seriously. You see things from only one side of the coin because you focus on one thing only. What that means is that you do not do the research to verify what the truth actually is:

There is near unanimity among scholars that Jesus existed historically. This is well known, and stated by such respected scholars in the field as Eahrman, Price, and yes, even your hero Richard Carrier.

Here's a short list of many of those scholars:

JD Crossan, M Borg, EP Sanders, J Meier and NT Wright, Geza Vermes, R Bauckham, C Evans, J Dunn, M Hengel, P Fredriksen, D Allison and B Chilton, Steve Mason, Alice Wheatley, Joseph Hoffmann, Louis H. Feldman, John P. Meier, James H. Charlesworth, Gerd Theissen, Annette Merz.

There's 21 just off the top of my head. Of course this is a sampling of the hundreds of others.

Now, let's put you to teh test.

Please find just 5 accredited historians who support Jesus Mythicism.

I'll start you off:

Richard Carrier, Earl Doherty (who has not once produced any evidence of his credentials), ....


Go!

Note: Did you notice that I didn't use the 150 scholars from the Jesus Seminar?

Thumbsup

You don't get it still, do you?

Try and keep up, boy. I'll try and type this S L O W L Y so that you can understand.

If people believe jebus existed, they don't go looking for evidence to the contrary and, shock, horror, they don't find any and and so people continue to believe that jebus existed.

Now, enter Carrier.

With me so far?

Now Carrier says to himself, maybe this jeebus guy never really had an earthly existence based on the other things that I've found out. Now let's take a fresh look at the evidence and see if he really existed or whether people wanted us to think that he existed. Now, the evidence is tells us that jeebus was a creation of people who wanted us to believe in the new christian religion. They gave jeebus the deity and earthly existence.

Now, boy, do you see?

And you don't seem to understand that I, nor any of the scholars I listed, ever state that Jesus' existence is a fact.

What we say is quite simply that the argument for historicity is far greater and far superior than the argument for Jesus Mythicism.

Now, boy, do you see?

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02-07-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 10:08 AM)Free Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 10:00 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  You don't get it still, do you?

Try and keep up, boy. I'll try and type this S L O W L Y so that you can understand.

If people believe jebus existed, they don't go looking for evidence to the contrary and, shock, horror, they don't find any and and so people continue to believe that jebus existed.

Now, enter Carrier.

With me so far?

Now Carrier says to himself, maybe this jeebus guy never really had an earthly existence based on the other things that I've found out. Now let's take a fresh look at the evidence and see if he really existed or whether people wanted us to think that he existed. Now, the evidence is tells us that jeebus was a creation of people who wanted us to believe in the new christian religion. They gave jeebus the deity and earthly existence.

Now, boy, do you see?

And you don't seem to understand that I, nor any of the scholars I listed, ever state that Jesus' existence is a fact.

What we say is quite simply that the argument for historicity is far greater and far superior than the argument for Jesus Mythicism.

Now, boy, do you see?

And what I'm saying is, boy, THAT WAS PRE-CARRIER. How many more times? PRE- CARRIER. GET IT?

The world has moved on. They are stuck where they were - and will probably remain there until they die believing that jebus actually existed.

Now do you get it, boy?

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02-07-2015, 10:27 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 10:22 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 10:08 AM)Free Wrote:  And you don't seem to understand that I, nor any of the scholars I listed, ever state that Jesus' existence is a fact.

What we say is quite simply that the argument for historicity is far greater and far superior than the argument for Jesus Mythicism.

Now, boy, do you see?

And what I'm saying is, boy, THAT WAS PRE-CARRIER. How many more times? PRE- CARRIER. GET IT?

The world has moved on. They are stuck where they were - and will probably remain there until they die believing that jebus actually existed.

Now do you get it, boy?

You act as if Carrier has changed the opinions of the world's scholars.

He has not. He basically stands alone in the field due to his crackpot ideas. He hasn't made any noticeable difference in the scholarly field on the question of historicity.

Guys like you eat his crap up like starving wolves. The rest of us laugh at him.

Thumbsup

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02-07-2015, 10:38 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 10:27 AM)Free Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 10:22 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  And what I'm saying is, boy, THAT WAS PRE-CARRIER. How many more times? PRE- CARRIER. GET IT?

The world has moved on. They are stuck where they were - and will probably remain there until they die believing that jebus actually existed.

Now do you get it, boy?

You act as if Carrier has changed the opinions of the world's scholars.

He has not. He basically stands alone in the field due to his crackpot ideas. He hasn't made any noticeable difference in the scholarly field on the question of historicity.

Guys like you eat his crap up like starving wolves. The rest of us laugh at him.

Thumbsup
My point is made, boy.

When I spoke of people "who are stuck where they were - and will probably remain there until they die believing that jebus actually existed.", I was thinking of people like you.

There's an interesting Dawkins video in which he talks about a certain Cambridge Professor who, on the one hand, teaches Darwinism and, on the other hand, states that "of course, I don't really believe in Darwinism".

It was ever thus.

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02-07-2015, 10:43 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(02-07-2015 10:05 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  
(02-07-2015 09:59 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Actually, you didn't. Here is a direct quote from the post I was responding to:


The only specific documents you refer to are forged Epistles, which are in the Bible. I see nothing about any non-Biblical documents. You might have meant "external to the Bible", but that's not what you said.

Ah, sorry. The above is part of a number of posts of mine on the same subject. In several of the earlier posts, I specified that I was referring to non-biblical texts. I didn't feel it necessary to keep repeating myself. Perhaps I should have done.

Again, in the earlier posts, I specifically refer to the texts of Josphus and Tacitus. Again, I didn't feel it necessary to keep repeating myself. Perhaps I should have done.

Love 15.

There again, perhaps the onus was on you to familiarise yourself with this thread prior to comment.

15 all.

I presume that a draw is acceptable?

I actually have read the whole thread, but was only responding to that one post. But I have no wish to start a fight here, so I will happily call it a draw. Cheers!

Smile

More seriously, though, I don't think either side has a slam dunk here. The miracle-working, walking-on-water, rising-from-the-dead Jesus of the Gospels is almost certainly a fabrication, but it seems plausible to me that there may have been a rabble-rousing preacher named Jesus who got a bit too uppity and was executed by the Romans. That such a person existed doesn't seem such an outrageous position for an atheist to hold.

I will freely admit that I don't know nearly enough to make any dogmatic pronouncements on this issue -- and I wonder if any of us do. Perhaps we should be a bit more polite to each other, and give a bit more "benefit of the doubt". For my part, I am happy to leave it for scholars like Carrier and Ehrman to duke it out.
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