Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
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19-10-2015, 06:55 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(19-10-2015 04:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  Many here don't think that either side has a convincing argument; the only honest position is 'I don't know'.

Yes, I know. Like the sort of individuals, who can't conclude that Harry Potter is a fictional character, without an explicit disclaimer stating so by JK Rowling. And individuals who have trouble holding a belief in anything. Some of them are just honestly confused, other's are not so honest at all. They're not produced by their college years, and seems to be produced primarily by belonging to some community which favors believing in nothing over something.

They make for an interesting case study.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-10-2015, 06:59 PM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(19-10-2015 06:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-10-2015 04:33 PM)Chas Wrote:  Many here don't think that either side has a convincing argument; the only honest position is 'I don't know'.

Yes, I know. Like the sort of individuals, who can't conclude that Harry Potter is a fictional character, without an explicit disclaimer stating so by JK Rowling. And individuals who have trouble holding a belief in anything. Some of them are just honestly confused, other's are not so honest at all. They're not produced by their college years, and seems to be produced primarily by belonging to some community which favors believing in nothing over something.

They make for an interesting case study.

Still waiting on that evidence Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-10-2015, 07:07 PM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(19-10-2015 06:39 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-10-2015 03:22 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  There's seem to be no apologist for Carrier for me to be arguing with, but just a bunch of fence sitters.

Oh please. Facepalm
All you have to do is take any one of his points and tell us why they are wrong.
Facepalm
Facepalm
Facepalm

Weeping

So I'm suppose to argue why some point of Carrier's is entirely unconvincing, to a group of individuals who like me don't find Carriers arguments convincing?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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19-10-2015, 07:08 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(19-10-2015 06:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Or in other words, without some explicit disclaimer by the writer, you’re not able to infer whether a characters in a story is entirely fictional, created solely by the writers imagination, or based on the life and history of an actual historical person?
I can't discover evidence for the non existence of a person who is the basis for the character in the book.
(19-10-2015 06:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So according to this entirely contradictory thought process illustrated above, we can infer whether or not a character is fictional by the supernatural attributes assigned to him. Since we know that supernatural stuff is impossible, this would suggest that when something supernatural happens in a Harry Potter book, or in the accounts of Jesus, we can rule these aspects as created by the imaginations of their authors, as opposed to being based on historical persons or actual events.
The defining feature of Harry Potter is that he is a young wizard, with a special destiny to combat the evil Voldemort.
If you found a boy with spectacles who lived under the stairs. You'd be a douche to start calling him Harry Potter, especially if his name isn't Harry Potter.

The defining feature of Jesus is that he is a god/man half breed. He died and came back to life days later. If you find a leader of a Jewish sect who died via cricifiction, you would be a douche to call him Jesus, especially if his name isn't Jesus.
I understand that you are searching for a man (leader of a Jewish cult) who was crucified. Such a man may have existed, perhaps there are many that fit that description, perhaps there are none. There is no compelling evidence to suggest which of these are true.
But even if you did find such a man, his defining attributes aren't that he was a man/god half breed and arent' that he died and came back to life. He is not what people would call "Jesus".
(19-10-2015 06:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But when it comes to non-supernatural attributes, entirely naturalistic events, such as the crucifixion, we can’t infer one way or the other?
No we can't. We know crucifixions occurred. We know people can die and we know Romans ruled at that time. But given all this we cannot infer that Jesus was crucified.
(19-10-2015 06:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  While supernatural scenarios allows us to infer fictional elements of a story, natural scenarios don’t allow us to infer historical elements.
Exactly. Same thing applies to the scientific method. If a claim is properly formed it includes falsifiable criteria. If we show that the claim has been falsified then we know that the claim is not true.
If, however we show that the claim was not falsified, even though we would have expected it to be easily falsified then we gain a degree of confidence to the truth of the claim.
For example, if Evolution is false we would not find a clear order to the Phylogenetic tree but we do find this clear order. Granted it is complicated due to cross species breeding i.e. human/chimp, human/neanderthal. If evolution is false we would not find the clear order in the fossil record, we would not find the consistency of species location given the continental shift. But all things come together nicely to give a very high degree of confidence in evolution.

What would we expect to see if Jesus did exist as opposed to if he didn't? The stories and parables attributed to Jesus could have come from a real Jesus or they could have come from people's imaginations ascribing them to a mythical Jesus. We can't tell.
But when the stories have Jesus doing magical things then we know these stories are fictional.
(19-10-2015 06:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It appears that even if the accounts avoid assigning any supernatural attributes to Jesus, you wouldn’t be inclined to infer that they were based on an actual historical events or person.
If there were eye witness accounts then that would support the Jesus story. If Jesus did something significant and hence was written about in non Christian text by eye witnesses then that would be significant. But there is nothing.
(19-10-2015 06:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  We have children who are able to memorize the entire Qur’an, through a concentrated effort to do so, so it shouldn’t be surprising that communities entirely dependent on oral forms of communications have been able to preserve a great deal through rote memorization.
And of course the children have the written Quran to read and re-read and they have years to keep re reading it and to memorise it.
How long did "Jesus" speak at the Sermon on the Mount? Did anyone write it down?
How quickly were people expected to memorise word for word what was spoken?
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19-10-2015, 07:10 PM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(19-10-2015 07:07 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(19-10-2015 06:39 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Oh please. Facepalm
All you have to do is take any one of his points and tell us why they are wrong.
Facepalm
Facepalm
Facepalm

Weeping

So I'm suppose to argue why some point of Carrier's is entirely unconvincing, to a group of individuals who like me don't find Carriers arguments convincing?

I'm beginning to think that the odds of you admitting you're wrong about literally anything are as good as your chances of finding evidence that fairies don't exist. Consider

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-10-2015, 07:18 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
So you haven't watched any of his videos, and know nothing about his views. OK bye.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-10-2015, 07:19 PM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(19-10-2015 07:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So you haven't watched any of his videos, and know nothing about his views. OK bye.

You didn't expect tommyboy to be honest, did you?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-10-2015, 07:35 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(19-10-2015 06:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  They're not produced by their college years, and seems to be produced primarily by belonging to some community which favors believing in nothing over something.
This is douchery.

Tomasia, given that you are here at an atheist site, it would be a great opportunity for you to try and learn about us. Overcome some of your silly preconceived ideas about us.

What does "believing in nothing" even mean?
It's a meme that we would expect to hear from drive by tolls. Not something to hear from a person engaged in real conversation with people on this forum.
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19-10-2015, 07:41 PM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
Laugh out load

Tommyboy's dishonesty getting called out makes me giggle.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-10-2015, 07:59 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
I'm more upset that, while trying to have a reasonable discussion of the historicity question, when I bother to make a detailed refutation of assumptions and provide solid reasons why we cannot presume certain facts not in evidence, complete with providing models of how alternative explanations could have occurred, I'm simply ignored...

...but if one person says something that's hostile, or seen as objectionable in some way, he leaps on that immediately. Undecided

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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