Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
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22-10-2015, 07:23 AM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 07:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 06:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You quite literally want written admissions from people that it's all an intentional fable, from people who clearly believed it was real. :face palm:

I said a variety of forms of evidence, like writings from other sects they suppose Christian plagiarized their parables and sayings from. Writings perhaps from critics of Christianity, suggesting that the christians made their story up, like the sort that accusing Mary of being raped by a Roman soldier, anything we could draw inferences supportive of mythicist conclusions, amalgamation conclusions. Non-christian Jewish writing with messianic expectations that would allow for a non-historical messiah, etc... There's a variety of different things that if we had some trace, suggest, or sources of, would be supportive of the mythicist conclusion.

Quote:Your desired "evidence" isn't the equivalent of a Precambrian bunny, it would be the equivalent of asking for god's handwriting in Hadean rocks laying out the reasoning for making life look like it evolved but was really created by him.

Except of course it's human writing, writing from critics, competing sects, jews, etc... that would be supportive of a mythicist hypothesis.

What you want is for people who believe they were writing something true, is an admission that they're writing something false.

That would be like taking other ancient beliefs (like ammonites were believed to be petrified snakes) and requiring written admissions that they are known to not be what they are claimed to be.

Do you require written admissions from humans saying that they know the Earth isn't flat but who then continue to write that the earth is flat for the sake of their religious beliefs in order to believe the earth isn't flat?

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22-10-2015, 07:25 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 06:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Do you need these sorts of evidence about Joseph Smith to dismiss Mormonism? Or about Mohammed to dismiss Islam? Or about Confucius? Or Buddha? Or Shiva? Or Odin? Etc

No, you just need this sort of evidence to dismiss the historicity of Jesus, to form a more likely explanation than the conclusion of historicity.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-10-2015, 07:27 AM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 07:25 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 06:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Do you need these sorts of evidence about Joseph Smith to dismiss Mormonism? Or about Mohammed to dismiss Islam? Or about Confucius? Or Buddha? Or Shiva? Or Odin? Etc

No, you just need this sort of evidence to dismiss the historicity of Jesus, to form a more likely explanation than the conclusion of historicity.

I don't know what you think you said in this reply. No It's gibberish.

You need the written admissions and blatant plagiarism to deny your Jesus, but you're okay with denying other mythological figures without having the same level of evidence? And I assume you don't see the contradiction (hypocrisy) in this?

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22-10-2015, 07:33 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 07:23 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  What you want is for people who believe they were writing something true, is an admission that they're writing something false.

Not at all, in fact the sort of stuff I implied, would be non-christian. The writing of non-christian sects, non-christian groups with the same parables, and sayings. Non-christian sects who believed in a mythicist version of the messiah, that supposedly that Gospels built their stories around, etc.....

Critics of Christianity, commenting on speculations that the Christians made the Yeshua up, like we have of those accusing Mary of being raped, of the Resurrection being a superstition.

The sort of stuff we can use to support an alternative more likely explanations than the historicist ones.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-10-2015, 07:35 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 07:23 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  What you want is for people who believe they were writing something true, is an admission that they're writing something false.

Not at all, in fact the sort of stuff I implied, would be non-christian. The writing of non-christian sects, non-christian groups with the same parables, and sayings. Non-christian sects who believed in a mythicist version of the messiah, that supposedly that Gospels built their stories around, etc.....

Critics of Christianity, commenting on speculations that the Christians made the Yeshua up, like we have of those accusing Mary of being raped, of the Resurrection being a superstition.

The sort of stuff we can use to support an alternative more likely explanation opposed to the historicist ones.

You want stories from other religious groups about things like resurrection and virgin birth and man-god and parables (like say...the golden rule), etc, etc?

Seriously? Have you even looked to see the myriad of other religions from which the same sorts of stories and myths and parables come from? Laugh out load

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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22-10-2015, 07:44 AM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2015 07:47 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 07:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You want stories from other religious groups about things like resurrection and virgin birth and man-god and parables (like say...the golden rule), etc, etc?

Seriously? Have you even looked to see the myriad of other religions from which the same sorts of stories and myths and parables come from? Laugh out load

We're talking about the saying and the parables, and not arguing for the historicity of the virgin birth or resurrection, or any supernatural claims.

And the Golden Rule, is one independently derived in one version of the other by a variety of independent cultures and religions. (so are virgin births, and resurrections )

But unlike most versions of the golden rule, proposed in the negative form, to avoid doing, what you would not want done to you, the rendition if the Gospels is in the positive, proactive form, to do unto others, what you would have them do unto you.

But if you think the writers plagiarized their version of the golden rule from some other sect, or group, I'd be happy to hear you make a case for this.

Quote:Have you even looked to see the myriad of other religions from which the same sorts of stories and myths and parables come from?

Yes, I have.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-10-2015, 08:13 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 07:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 07:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You want stories from other religious groups about things like resurrection and virgin birth and man-god and parables (like say...the golden rule), etc, etc?

Seriously? Have you even looked to see the myriad of other religions from which the same sorts of stories and myths and parables come from? Laugh out load

We're talking about the saying and the parables, and not arguing for the historicity of the virgin birth or resurrection, or any supernatural claims.

And the Golden Rule, is one independently derived in one version of the other by a variety of independent cultures and religions. (so are virgin births, and resurrections )

But unlike most versions of the golden rule, proposed in the negative form, to avoid doing, what you would not want done to you, the rendition if the Gospels is in the positive, proactive form, to do unto others, what you would have them do unto you.

But if you think the writers plagiarized their version of the golden rule from some other sect, or group, I'd be happy to hear you make a case for this.

Quote:Have you even looked to see the myriad of other religions from which the same sorts of stories and myths and parables come from?

Yes, I have.

And there is the special pleading and shifting of the goal posts Drinking Beverage

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22-10-2015, 08:14 AM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2015 08:23 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
I'll reiterate my challenge from earlier in the thread. You show me evidence (that you claim there is an abundance of that is compelling) that Harry Potter is fictional, and you will have found the evidence that your Jesus is a myth.

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22-10-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 08:14 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'll reiterate my challenge from earlier in the thread. You show me evidence (that you claim there is an abundance of that is compelling) that Harry Potter is fictional, and you will have found the evidence that your Jesus is a myth.

Well, according to you the copyright note, style and composition, wouldn't be evidence in support of Harry Potter being fictional. And as far I can decipher your reasoning, it appears you think that there can not be "evidence" that a character is fictional, only historical.

Though as to how anyone can reasonably conclude a character is fictional absent of evidence, is not something you ever clarified either.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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22-10-2015, 08:54 AM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 08:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 08:14 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'll reiterate my challenge from earlier in the thread. You show me evidence (that you claim there is an abundance of that is compelling) that Harry Potter is fictional, and you will have found the evidence that your Jesus is a myth.

Well, according to you the copyright note, style and composition, wouldn't be evidence in support of Harry Potter being fictional. And as far I can decipher your reasoning, it appears you think that there can not be "evidence" that a character is fictional, only historical.

Though as to how anyone can reasonably conclude a character is fictional absent of evidence, is not something you ever clarified either.

You keep repeating the same garbage logic. Do you expect different results?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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