Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
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22-10-2015, 06:25 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 06:11 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  That is certainly not my position, and I'd bet it's not Stevil's either.

But, Chas, if he can't just make up shit and pretend people believe it, he'd actually have to engage with what people are saying to him. And where would the smarmy dishonesty fun be then?

Oh, jeez, I guess I just didn't think that through. Facepalm Weeping

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-10-2015, 06:30 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 06:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 06:11 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But, Chas, if he can't just make up shit and pretend people believe it, he'd actually have to engage with what people are saying to him. And where would the smarmy dishonesty fun be then?

Oh, jeez, I guess I just didn't think that through. Facepalm Weeping

Clearly not! If he had to resort to reconsidering his clearly unfalsifiable presuppositions, it might end up being a little bit uncomfortable. Surely you, like me or any caring observer, would want to spare him such an unpleasant experience?

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22-10-2015, 06:55 PM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
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23-10-2015, 07:44 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 05:37 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What is the falsifiable criteria of the existence of "Jesus"?

You might as well ask what would falsify the existence of any ancient historical character. What would falsify the existence of Pilate?

In reality evidence that would better support an alternative mythicist position, that makes this a more likely or equally as likely explanation. Mythicist, like Carrier often presuppose the existence of an early cult that believed in a mythicist Jesus, that Paul was a part of this cult, so where the disciple. Than when he writer of James, the brother of Jesus, that he meant it figuratively. If there were in fact evidence of such a cult, writings from that cult. If there we found writings by Christian writers, criticizing such mythicist beliefs, as they did a variety of other heresies. All this could be used to strengthen the mythicist case and weaken the historicist case.

In regards to you claim that the original parables and sayings were likely to have been distorted, if we found early writings with distorted renditions of the same parables found in the complied accounts we refer to as the gospel. This would be supportive of this conclusion.

Or in regards to the saying and parables are a part of an amalgamation of different historical characters and sects of the time, writings of those sects would be evidence in support of this conclusion. All weakening the historicist case, and strengthening the alternative to it.

When you can form and compose a better explanation that historicity, or vouch for the ones held by mythicists, like Carrier, or Price, Arachaya X, etc... as better ones, you're argument here is nothing.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-10-2015, 08:03 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2015 08:31 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(22-10-2015 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  And neither side has sufficient evidence nor a convincing argument. [….]
Given that, an honest person can withhold judgement..


As I said in you view an honest person would be a level 4 agnostics on the question. In regards to Carrier vs Ehrman, you’d see yourself unable to get off the fence, to side with one side or the other, the evidence is not sufficient enough to side with one party or the other. That both their conclusions are equally as likely, based on this insufficiency?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-10-2015, 08:05 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 08:03 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  And neither side has sufficient evidence nor a convincing argument. [….]
Given that, an honest person can withhold judgement..


As I said in you view an honest person would be a level 4 agnostics on the question. In regards to Carrier vs Ehrman, you’d see yourself unable to get off the fence, to side with one side or the other, the evidence is not sufficient enough to side with one party or the other. That both their conclusions are equally as likely, based on this insufficiency,

Do you view 4 as a default state or the "honest position" of any position which is new to some person?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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23-10-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 08:05 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Do you view 4 as a default state or the "honest position" of any position which is new to some person?

I'd consider myself a level 4, when it comes to the question of you having a dog. I don't have any information to move one way or the other on the question. If you asked me if your neighbors names is Phil, it would be the same thing.

But let's suppose there is a scenario in which two people are arguing two difference sides of an issue, and I read both of their arguments and cases, and find them both to be equally as reasonable, equally as convincing, so I find myself unable to side with one party or the other, in this I'd also see myself as a level 4. In this scenario, if I understand their arguments, a part of that understanding would allow me to argue for both sides. If someone particularly sided with one party over the other, and claimed the other sides conclusions are less likely. I can likely argue for why that's not the case. I can argue for the strength of any of these explanations, to put them on equal footing with the other. I'd still be a level 4 agnostics in this second scenario, but an informed one, as opposed to scenario 1, in which I'm totally in the dark.

The second scenario is not actual reflection of the individuals here who appeal to no judgement, they don't particularly argue for the merit of alternative explanations. Propose them as equally likely. It's not even clear what they're positions break down to. I couldn't imagine holding such a position like there's on any question, but I can see myself in scenario 1 and scenario 2 here.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-10-2015, 08:50 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 07:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What is the falsifiable criteria of the existence of "Jesus"?

The absence of any Roman records appointing him to his position in Judea. They exist. Your anaolgy is false.

Quote:In reality evidence that would better support an alternative mythicist position, that makes this a more likely or equally as likely explanation.

Is not a sentence in the English language. It would REALLY help if you knew how to write in the English language.

Quote:Mythicist, like Carrier often presuppose the existence of an early cult that believed in a mythicist Jesus, that Paul was a part of this cult, so where the disciple. Than when he writer of James, the brother of Jesus, that he meant it figuratively.

When you can form and compose a better explanation that historicity, or vouch for the ones held by mythicists, like Carrier, or Price, Arachaya X, etc... as better ones, you're argument here is nothing.

WTAF ? Are you on drugs or drunk ?
You get an "F" in composition. No one can figure out what the hell you are even saying, (that is, if you even know yourself). You also need to provide a reference and quoted evidence for the claim for what Carrier and other scholars "bellieve". You obviously haven't even watch any of his videos, or read his books. Not one of them has ever said they think there was a cult that thought there was a "mythical Jesus".

All Christians were called "brothers". Neither you, nor anyone knows for sure how the word "brother" was used, or what it meant, for sure.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-10-2015, 09:10 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 08:50 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The absence of any Roman records appointing him to his position in Judea. They exist. Your anaolgy is false.

We have no eye witness accounts of Pilate, we have no record of how he died, except ones written several hundred years after his death.

We have some coins, and a fragmentary inscription with his name and title. The only accounts we have of his reign are from two jewish sources, Philo, and Josephus, none of them being eye witness accounts.

The only Roman historian that even mention's Pilate, is Tacitus, and that's in the passage regarding the crucifixion of Jesus.

And we're talking about arguably the the single most important political figure in Roman Palestine at the time, yet only gets a nod by Tacitus.

" And what records from that decade do we have from his reign—what Roman records of his major accomplishments, his daily itinerary, the decrees he passed, the laws he issued, the prisoners he put on trial, the death warrants he signed, his scandals, his interviews, his judicial proceedings? We have none. Nothing at all.”

Excerpt From: Bart D. Ehrman. “Did Jesus Exist?.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/Vc9tA.l

And consider this, that we have far less information, about any other governor of Judea in Roman times.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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23-10-2015, 09:23 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 09:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  We have no eye witness accounts of Pilate, we have no record of how he died, except ones written several hundred years after his death.

Coins and a name and title from NONBELIEVERS is more than you have of Jesus. Your analogy remains false. There is no cult that arose to worship Pilate. There is no motivation to cook up a "Pilate" and ascribe to him a mythical accomplishment. No one cares how HE died, only that he existed. You have nothing on your specific mythical Jesus person. You have YET to argue against even one of Carrier's positions.

And unfortunately, you and Ehrman are both wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_Stone

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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