Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
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23-10-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 09:23 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Coins and a name and title from NONBELIEVERS is more than you have of Jesus. Your analogy remains false. There is no cult that arose to worship Pilate. There is no motivation to cook up a "Pilate" and ascribe to him a mythical accomplishment.

And there were no cults at the time expecting a non-existing messiah/mythicist messiah. No jewish sects expecting a non-historical messiah to fulfill OT prophecies, let alone one that was going to be crucified by the Romans. There's no motivation for an active effort to create a fictional messiah, and place him in history.

In fact for Pilate, if we are to follow the reasoning on display here, since all we have for Pilate are some coins, and an inscription, then all we can say is that there was a governor at the time named Pilate. And since accounts of his campaigns and life are from non-eyewitness accounts, we can't accept them as evidence in regards to the history of his reign. (I should point out that we have coins and inscriptions for god's and goddesses at the time as well, perhaps Pilate was some mythical governor God, of some obscure Roman cult?)

For Jesus you have first hand accounts of someone who met his brother and disciples, you have Josephus writing of his brother James's death, and highlighting that he's the brother of Jesus, to identify him to his audience. If you think we can't reasonably infer from this that Jesus was a historical person, then you're an idiot.

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23-10-2015, 10:02 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
There was no motivation to create Johnny Appleseed either. Drinking Beverage Fictional characters just...happen

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23-10-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 10:02 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There was no motivation to create Johnny Appleseed either. Drinking Beverage Fictional characters just...happen

He... he was real. Like an actual person, and somewhat a religious nut; Now Paul Bunyan is a different tale, he was fictional and is the one that fits the nature of legends. He grew and grew and became more unique as the story grew and was passed on with age.

Johnny Appleseed and Davie Crocket are the types of legends who were notably spread around as legendary figures even in their timelines. Plays were written and songs were written of them during their life they knew about. Crockett was at his play's opening night where the character was a joke version of him named Nimrod, which may be the origin of calling someone Nimrod to mean an they're a simpleton/idiot.

(23-10-2015 08:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'd consider myself a level 4, when it comes to the question of you having a dog. I don't have any information to move one way or the other on the question. If you asked me if your neighbors names is Phil, it would be the same thing.

Well that's one way to look at the position. I'm not certain that scale quite fits the view, but I know you for whatever reason don't like the mental "disbelief" or not of a position type of action to something, I still think that is a more natural real state of a human mind over the 4 state. The 4 is like media news coverage of, oh we have no stance here but both sides have an equal case to make so we take both of them into account to the same degree despite argument.

I'd rather start off saying, I don't know or believe either side and I'm not even going to acknowledge it's worth until there is a built up reasons to take accept it. So yeah, in a way you were degrading earlier, that is like saying something has to establish itself enough before it even is being considered evidence. Because if you just take everything as at an equal potential level you're not going to be able to discern the nonsense from the validity as efficiently or at anything remotely close to objectively.

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23-10-2015, 10:54 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
Quote:In fact for Pilate, if we are to follow the reasoning on display here, since all we have for Pilate are some coins, and an inscription,

You are wrong. We have Philo's Embassy to Gaius written in 40 AD in which he recounts some of the abuses of Pilate but has nothing to say about any "jesus." Philo was a contemporary of Pilate and, had he existed, "jesus" too. But nary a word about your godboy.

We also have Josephus' comments about Pilate's provocations in Judaea and Samaria even though Josephus was not contemporary. So the coins and the inscription are far from being the clincher for Pilate.

If you had anything remotely similar for your boy we would not be having this discussion. But you don't.

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23-10-2015, 11:06 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 10:34 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 10:02 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There was no motivation to create Johnny Appleseed either. Drinking Beverage Fictional characters just...happen

He... he was real. Like an actual person, and somewhat a religious nut; Now Paul Bunyan is a different tale, he was fictional and is the one that fits the nature of legends. He grew and grew and became more unique as the story grew and was passed on with age.

Johnny Appleseed and Davie Crocket are the types of legends who were notably spread around as legendary figures even in their timelines. Plays were written and songs were written of them during their life they knew about. Crockett was at his play's opening night where the character was a joke version of him named Nimrod, which may be the origin of calling someone Nimrod to mean an they're a simpleton/idiot.

(23-10-2015 08:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'd consider myself a level 4, when it comes to the question of you having a dog. I don't have any information to move one way or the other on the question. If you asked me if your neighbors names is Phil, it would be the same thing.

Well that's one way to look at the position. I'm not certain that scale quite fits the view, but I know you for whatever reason don't like the mental "disbelief" or not of a position type of action to something, I still think that is a more natural real state of a human mind over the 4 state. The 4 is like media news coverage of, oh we have no stance here but both sides have an equal case to make so we take both of them into account to the same degree despite argument.

I'd rather start off saying, I don't know or believe either side and I'm not even going to acknowledge it's worth until there is a built up reasons to take accept it. So yeah, in a way you were degrading earlier, that is like saying something has to establish itself enough before it even is being considered evidence. Because if you just take everything as at an equal potential level you're not going to be able to discern the nonsense from the validity as efficiently or at anything remotely close to objectively.

Well I'll be damed on ol' Johnny. The version I had grown up with was more fiction than basis for fact.

But Paul Bunyan is a good example Thumbsup

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23-10-2015, 01:42 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 07:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  In regards to you claim that the original parables and sayings were likely to have been distorted, if we found early writings with distorted renditions of the same parables found in the complied accounts we refer to as the gospel. This would be supportive of this conclusion.
If they originated from Yeshua they would have likely been distorted.
However, most likely they didn't come from Yeshua. Many were well defined long before the illiterate Yeshua supposedly lived.
These stories have propogated because there has been a source, there has been promotion of them. It does not lead that Yeshua was the source. There is nothing to suggest that Yeshua was the source. The bible's accounts can't be true because if yeshua did it on the mount as a once off, then it would have got distorted.

Well, perhaps it did get distorted, but perhaps a strong leader i.e. Saul, took up a distorted account and promoted that account.

Who knows, all we know is that it is unreasonable to suggest that these parables must have come from yeshua. They could have come from anywhere, and there is evidence to show that the prodigal son story predates yeshua.
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23-10-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 09:55 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And there were no cults at the time expecting a non-existing messiah/mythicist messiah. No jewish sects expecting a non-historical messiah to fulfill OT prophecies, let alone one that was going to be crucified by the Romans. There's no motivation for an active effort to create a fictional messiah, and place him in history.

Bullshit. The uneducated/illiterate population later in the 1st Century would have no way of knowing whether their leaders were foisting a fable on them, so that argument is utter crap, and as for "no motivation" .... you have GOT to be shitting us. There are so many motives for that sort of dishonesty, and "pious fraud", (which BTW, they ADMITTED TO, readily), they can't be counted.
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23-10-2015, 09:35 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 08:03 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-10-2015 06:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  And neither side has sufficient evidence nor a convincing argument. [….]
Given that, an honest person can withhold judgement..


As I said in you view an honest person would be a level 4 agnostics on the question. In regards to Carrier vs Ehrman, you’d see yourself unable to get off the fence, to side with one side or the other, the evidence is not sufficient enough to side with one party or the other. That both their conclusions are equally as likely, based on this insufficiency?

I don't have to believe them equally likely to see that neither is a convincing argument.

And what the actual fuck is "see yourself unable to get off the fence"?
Why do you insist I have to side with one unconvincing argument over another unconvincing argument? Consider
Things are rarely black and white - there are many, many shades of grey.
You might want to consider that before spouting more false dichotomies.

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23-10-2015, 09:40 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 09:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 08:50 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The absence of any Roman records appointing him to his position in Judea. They exist. Your anaolgy is false.

We have no eye witness accounts of Pilate, we have no record of how he died, except ones written several hundred years after his death.

We have some coins, and a fragmentary inscription with his name and title. The only accounts we have of his reign are from two jewish sources, Philo, and Josephus, none of them being eye witness accounts.

The only Roman historian that even mention's Pilate, is Tacitus, and that's in the passage regarding the crucifixion of Jesus.

And we're talking about arguably the the single most important political figure in Roman Palestine at the time, yet only gets a nod by Tacitus.

" And what records from that decade do we have from his reign—what Roman records of his major accomplishments, his daily itinerary, the decrees he passed, the laws he issued, the prisoners he put on trial, the death warrants he signed, his scandals, his interviews, his judicial proceedings? We have none. Nothing at all.”

Excerpt From: Bart D. Ehrman. “Did Jesus Exist?.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/Vc9tA.l

And consider this, that we have far less information, about any other governor of Judea in Roman times.


We have physical evidence. There is none for Jesus.

[Image: Coin-of-Pilate.jpg]

[Image: 1920px-Pilate_Inscription.JPG]

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25-10-2015, 06:10 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 10:54 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:In fact for Pilate, if we are to follow the reasoning on display here, since all we have for Pilate are some coins, and an inscription,

You are wrong. We have Philo's Embassy to Gaius written in 40 AD in which he recounts some of the abuses of Pilate but has nothing to say about any "jesus." Philo was a contemporary of Pilate and, had he existed, "jesus" too. But nary a word about your godboy.

Did you just read the first sentence of my post and decided to respond. To quote myself:

"We have some coins, and a fragmentary inscription with his name and title. The only accounts we have of his reign are from two jewish sources, Philo, and Josephus, none of them being eye witness accounts."

And for the Gospels we variety of Christian accounts of his saying and parables, and death. We also have Josephus writing of Jesus brother James's death, and we have Paul first hand account of meeting his disciples and his brother.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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