Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
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25-10-2015, 06:18 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 09:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  We have physical evidence. There is none for Jesus.

[Image: Coin-of-Pilate.jpg]

[Image: 1920px-Pilate_Inscription.JPG]

That's just a coin, it's not the bones, or the tomb of Pilate.

We have coins of Apollo, Asclepius, Juno, a variety of Gods. We also have inscriptions with the names of God's on them. There could have been a mythicist prefect cult, that worshipped a spiritual ruler named Pilate, and Josephus and Philo, were just mentioning the beliefs of that cult in their writings, since they were not eye witness accounts.

I'm sure this reasonings sounds silly to you right?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-10-2015, 06:28 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(25-10-2015 06:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm sure this reasonings sounds silly to you right?

Not silly.

Desperate.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-10-2015, 06:39 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(23-10-2015 01:42 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If they originated from Yeshua they would have likely been distorted.

No, there's no evidence in support of distortion, no writings found with distorted renditions of the parables and sayings, no distorted renderings making there way in the complied Gospels, no quotes from Christian writers referring to distorted versions of passages etc...

Quote:However, most likely they didn't come from Yeshua. Many were well defined long before the illiterate Yeshua supposedly lived.

No there most likely came from Yeshua, since there's no evidence that they belonged to anyone else. Randoms joes don't typically have parables and sayings, Jewish teachers do. Since we don't find the same parables and sayings in Jewish writings, that the gospels plagiarized, they belong to someone annexed from that tradition. Or in other words, some remarkably like Yeshua.

Quote:These stories have propogated because there has been a source, there has been promotion of them. It does not lead that Yeshua was the source.

No, it leads to Yeshua being most likely the source. You're suggestions are ones your pulling out of thin air, you lack any evidence to infer to support your claim that it likely belonged to someone else.

Quote:There is nothing to suggest that Yeshua was the source. The bible's accounts can't be true because if yeshua did it on the mount as a once off, then it would have got distorted.

Judging that the writers have Jesus saying these things in two different setting, and times. And the sayings sources, referred to as Q, didn't actually contain settings and times at what point they were said. It's safe to say the setting were constructed by the writers themselves, the order of the verses and passages as well, to paint a setting to include them.

You have the sayings and parables, in a Q source, shared by the writers, accounting for the shared sayings and parables between them, but difference in setting, time, and place.

Quote:Well, perhaps it did get distorted, but perhaps a strong leader i.e. Saul, took up a distorted account and promoted that account.

There's no evidence that Paul had anything to do with the construction of the Gospel, in fact if he did we'd likely be able to see inclusions of several of Paul's own theme's in the Gospels, like law court imagery, inclusion of the gentiles, atonement perspectives, Adam and Eve analogies, etc....

Quote:Who knows, all we know is that it is unreasonable to suggest that these parables must have come from yeshua.

No it's unreasonable to suggest otherwise. Just like it would be unreasonable to conclude the events attributed to Pilate in Philio and Josephus's accounts belonged to someone other than Pilate, or the campaigns attributed to Ceaser and Alexander belonged to someone other than them, for the sole reason that these were written by non-eye witnesses.

Your conclusions, lack any evidentiary support, no sources, no material you can appeal to to built them, no material suggestive of distortion, of the Gospel writers colluding with Saul, etc... It's just one big conspiracy theory.

Quote:They could have come from anywhere, and there is evidence to show that the prodigal son story predates yeshua.

No there isn't, there is Buddhist tale which involves a father and a son, who leaves him, but there entirely different stories, incorporating different themes, and overall concepts. But if you want to pursue that suggestion, cite the story, to see if it supports the plagiarist conclusions.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-10-2015, 06:49 AM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2015 07:46 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(25-10-2015 06:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Not silly.

Desperate.

And that's exactly how mythicist explanations sound. Desperate. But you and your comrades are so deluded by your religious resentments, that you can't even see your own desperation.

Apparently you seem to brush under the rug, that the entire history of Mythicist claims is plagued by desperation. From the writings of Archaya X, to Kersey Grave's The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, to the video segments that get attached to 9/11 Truther, and Global Banking Conspiracy videos, etc.. But those somewhat supportive of the mythicist position tend to sweep these kooks under the rug. Without recognizing that the more recent, refined versions of them, suffer from the same agenda driven desperation.

What do you think drove the conclusions of folks like Grave's and Archaya X, motivated their early followings? Clearly not evidence. The truth is that repents of their own pathologies are present even here. It's interesting. It's just goes to show that a modicum of resentment, and this case towards religion, can even delude the best of you all.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-10-2015, 07:06 AM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2015 07:12 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(25-10-2015 06:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 06:28 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Not silly.

Desperate.

And that's exactly how mythicist explanations sound. Desperate. But you and your comrades are so deluded by your religious resentments, that you can't even see your own desperation.

Apparently you seem to brush under the wrong, that the entire history of Mythicist claims is plagued by desperation. From the writings of Archaya X, to Kersey Grave's The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, to the video segments that get attached to 9/11 Truther, and Global Banking Conspiracy videos, etc.. But those somewhat supportive of the mythicist position tend to sweep these kooks under the rug. Without recognize that the more recent, refined versions of them, suffer from the same agenda driven desperation.

What do you think drove the conclusions of folks like Grave's and Archaya X, motivated their early followings? Clearly not evidence. The truth is that repents of their own pathologies are present even here. It's interesting. It's just goes to show that a modicum of resentment, and this case towards religion, can even delude the best of you all.

All that is hogwash, irrelevant, and desperate attempted deflection from the fact YOU, Tomasia, have not taken on ONE of Carrier's points and argued against it. I'm not a mythicist. But I see no successful argument here against THEM...not by you certainly. You are desperate, as you KNOW they were a bunch of liars, in whose minds "pious fraud" was acceptable : http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rly-church

Your bullshit about "resentment" and anger is utter crap. I participated in a worship service yesterday (in the music anyway). I'm angry at no one, and nothing. You don't know me, yet you feel you can judge, as that's the ONLY desperate church-lady conclusion you have left to jump to, in an attempt to say something, as you have no real arguments. You think Price and Carrier are angry too, you idiot ? Come to think of it, you have never once taken on even one of Price's arguments either. You're WAY out of your league here Tommy-boy. How about you go play in the sand box, where you belong ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-10-2015, 07:43 AM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(25-10-2015 07:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 06:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And that's exactly how mythicist explanations sound. Desperate. But you and your comrades are so deluded by your religious resentments, that you can't even see your own desperation.

Apparently you seem to brush under the wrong, that the entire history of Mythicist claims is plagued by desperation. From the writings of Archaya X, to Kersey Grave's The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors, to the video segments that get attached to 9/11 Truther, and Global Banking Conspiracy videos, etc.. But those somewhat supportive of the mythicist position tend to sweep these kooks under the rug. Without recognize that the more recent, refined versions of them, suffer from the same agenda driven desperation.

What do you think drove the conclusions of folks like Grave's and Archaya X, motivated their early followings? Clearly not evidence. The truth is that repents of their own pathologies are present even here. It's interesting. It's just goes to show that a modicum of resentment, and this case towards religion, can even delude the best of you all.

All that is hogwash, irrelevant, and desperate attempted deflection from the fact YOU, Tomasia, have not taken on ONE of Carrier's points and argued against it. I'm not a mythicist. But I see no successful argument here against THEM...not by you certainly. You are desperate, as you KNOW they were a bunch of liars, in whose minds "pious fraud" was acceptable : http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rly-church

Your bullshit about "resentment" and anger is utter crap. I participated in a worship service yesterday (in the music anyway). I'm angry at no one, and nothing. You don't know me, yet you feel you can judge, as that's the ONLY desperate church-lady conclusion you have left to jump to, in an attempt to say something, as you have no real arguments. You think Price and Carrier are angry too, you idiot ? Come to think of it, you have never once taken on even one of Price's arguments either. You're WAY out of your league here Tommy-boy. How about you go play in the sand box, where you belong ?

Careful, he might choke on the sand Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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25-10-2015, 07:43 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(25-10-2015 07:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your bullshit about "resentment" and anger is utter crap. I participated in a worship service yesterday (in the music anyway). I'm angry at no one, and nothing. You don't know me, yet you feel you can judge, as that's the ONLY desperate church-lady conclusion you have left to jump to, in an attempt to say something, as you have no real arguments. You think Price and Carrier are angry too, you idiot ?

Price and Carrier are descendants of the line paved for them by the Graves, and Archaya X's of the world. They might be more refined versions of the same garbage, but they're descendants of that same garbage though. Those atheists who were once inclined to peddle Grave's and Archaya X's view, like in the God Who Wasn't There, replaced these two with Carrier and Price, likely the only two names you're ever hear now a days on the subject, perhaps Earl Doherty would get a nod here and there.

Mythicist arguments just a few years ago, were entirely garbage, and they've had years to make them appear more sophisticated, just likecreationist, and their ilk at the Discovery Institute have, with things like "irreducible complexity".

They're driven by something, and that something is not an honest consideration of things. Hence why the history of Mythicism, has predominantly been occupied by blatant liars. And the audience most receptive to their claims, are the one's with long standing feud with religion. Why folks like AIG might be driven to defend Religion, Mythicist appear to be driven by antagonism towards religion.

Quote:Come to think of it, you have never once taken on even one of Price's arguments either. You're WAY out of your league here Tommy-boy. How about you go play in the sand box, where you belong ?

Because to me Carrier, and Price endeavors, are dead. Nowadays people only support them from the sidelines of their own reluctance to side with one view or the other. It would be interesting to argue in relationship to supporters of them, but not in relationship to those who find their arguments wanting, that's boring for me. Because the weakness of their positions are apparent in their lack of support among the non-believing masses, who now see the only comforting position, to avoid criticism and errors, is a lack of belief one way or the other.

The popular position here today, is to frame oneself as affirming no position, just rejecting affirming positions.
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25-10-2015, 07:48 AM (This post was last modified: 25-10-2015 07:51 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(25-10-2015 07:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 07:06 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Your bullshit about "resentment" and anger is utter crap. I participated in a worship service yesterday (in the music anyway). I'm angry at no one, and nothing. You don't know me, yet you feel you can judge, as that's the ONLY desperate church-lady conclusion you have left to jump to, in an attempt to say something, as you have no real arguments. You think Price and Carrier are angry too, you idiot ?

Price and Carrier are descendants of the line paved for them by the Graves, and Archaya X's of the world. They might be more refined versions of the same garbage, but they're descendants of that same garbage though. Those atheists who were once inclined to peddle Grave's and Archaya X's view, like in the God Who Wasn't There, replaced these two with Carrier and Price, likely the only two names you're ever hear now a days on the subject, perhaps Earl Doherty would get a nod here and there.

Mythicist arguments just a few years ago, were entirely garbage, and they've had years to make them appear more sophisticated, just likecreationist, and their ilk at the Discovery Institute have, with things like "irreducible complexity".

They're driven by something, and that something is not an honest consideration of things. Hence why the history of Mythicism, has predominantly been occupied by blatant liars. And the audience most receptive to their claims, are the one's with long standing feud with religion. Why folks like AIG might be driven to defend Religion, Mythicist appear to be driven by antagonism towards religion.

Quote:Come to think of it, you have never once taken on even one of Price's arguments either. You're WAY out of your league here Tommy-boy. How about you go play in the sand box, where you belong ?

Because to me Carrier, and Price endeavors, are dead. Nowadays people only support them from the sidelines of their own reluctance to side with one view or the other. It would be interesting to argue in relationship to supporters of them, but not in relationship to those who find their arguments wanting, that's boring for me. Because the weakness of their positions are apparent in their lack of support among the non-believing masses, who now see the only comforting position, to avoid criticism and errors, is a lack of belief one way or the other.

The popular position here today, is to frame oneself as affirming no position, just rejecting affirming positions.

AH yes. just fling the "angry atheist" poo at them, when all else fails. No one cares what they are to you, Tommy-boy. You got nothing. We all see that. You STILL have taken on NOT ONE specific argument and debunked it. You don't know them either. Yet you think you can judge them too? What are they "driven by" then ? Tell us oh reader of souls ? Didn't someone tell you not to do that ?

Have fun in the sand box. You are pathetic. They've sold more books than you ever will even have your hands on, Jebus-boy. Nice try to marginalize them. You really are here to preach aren't you ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-10-2015, 07:50 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(25-10-2015 07:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  AH yes. just fling the "angry atheist" poo at them, when all else fails. No one cares what they are to you, Tommy-boy. You got nothing. We all see that. You STILL have taken on NOT ONE specific argument and debunked it.

Have fun in the sand box. You are pathetic.

And you haven't taken one specific argument and supported it, for me to debunk.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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25-10-2015, 07:55 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(25-10-2015 07:50 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 07:48 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  AH yes. just fling the "angry atheist" poo at them, when all else fails. No one cares what they are to you, Tommy-boy. You got nothing. We all see that. You STILL have taken on NOT ONE specific argument and debunked it.

Have fun in the sand box. You are pathetic.

And you haven't taken one specific argument and supported it, for me to debunk.

Just as I thought. You haven't even read this thread, and are not even familiar with their arguments. I have presented at least one in this thread. You can't even recognize them.
To say nothing of watching their videos, reading their books, or listening to their lectures.
Yet you are free to judge them as "dishonest".
You are a troll.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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