Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
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26-10-2015, 08:22 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(26-10-2015 07:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can’t really start with a belief in a lived person, because that begs the question as to where did those beliefs arise from, if not from a lived person?
There was a living person that created the character "Yeshua" and preached of the life and times and miracles of Yeshua.
Others picked up on this character and wrote made up stories attributed to him as well.

(26-10-2015 07:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Paul belonged to such an early christian sect, that didn’t believe in a Jesus as a lived person.
You are joking right? You think that Chrisatians believe that Saul didn't think his "Yeshua" lived and had a brother and some apostles etc.

(26-10-2015 07:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Yes, I doubt that there are any Christians that believe Jesus was a myth and purely fictional
Congratulations, then you just unwittingly deflated the foundational assumption of pretty much every book length-mythicist/non-historical Jesus explanations that’s ever been offered.
What Christians are there that don't believe in Jesus?
(26-10-2015 07:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:No. I think you are incapable of coming to a conclusion that Jesus isn't real.
And you know this how?
Because you believe your place in heaven is dependant on you believing in Jesus.
Don't you?
(26-10-2015 07:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:What does Christianity mean to you? How can you be a Christian without a belief in Christ?
What do you believe to be the minimum requirements for a person to be a Christian?
What is it that makes you a Christian?

Perhaps I am a Christian too.

Well, according to Carrier and Price, there was an early group of believers in Yeshua, who didn’t believe he was a historical person, or that being the Messiah required a historical person, if true, then whatever minimum requirements are for being a Christian, apparently historical beliefs about Yeshua wouldn’t be a part of those requirements.
Are you on drugs?
Are you trying to tell me that some Christians know that their messiah is a made up fictional character but they believe in him anyway?
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26-10-2015, 08:45 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(26-10-2015 07:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can’t really start with a belief in a lived person, because that begs the question as to where did those beliefs arise from, if not from a lived person?

Oh pu-leeze. Just stop already.
(It's a "live" person, not a 'lived" person.)

So you're trying to tell us if Jebus didn't exist, you'd believe in him anyway. Facepalm

Your head is SO FAR up your ass, you'll never see daylight.

OMF'nG

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-10-2015, 09:18 PM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
He can probably see his tonsils from his head's current perspective. Consider

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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27-10-2015, 05:09 AM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 05:15 AM by Tomasia.)
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(26-10-2015 08:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So you're trying to tell us if Jebus didn't exist, you'd believe in him anyway. Facepalm

Your starting to show your hands. That your desire to erect a non-historical Jesus, is less driven by reason and evidence, but out of desire to deflate Christianity.

You want to argue for a mythicist Jesus, while painting this belief as unbelievable. Yet, according to folks like Carrier this is the sort of Jesus, Paul and the earliest Christians believed, a Jesus composed of moral and spiritual truths, but no historical ones.

So what is it? Either there was a sustainable version of an early Christianity not dependent on historical truths, just spiritual and moral ones, or there wasn't.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-10-2015, 05:53 AM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 06:01 AM by TheBeardedDude.)
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
Once again, you take your biases and prejudices pointed out to you by others, and project them back onto us.

Many of us once believed like you do, in a historical and magical Jesus. Then we grew a pair of balls (and stopped lying to ourselves and presenting dishonest representations of the facts) and actually started looking at the evidence and arguments objectively and found it more myth than history.

You insist that he has a bias against a historical Jesus in order to "deflate Christianity" when the reality is that even a historical Jesus doesn't lend any credibility to it. He is quite literally telling you (as have numerous others) that the lame arguments for Jesus, are unfounded and void of evidence. Be they historical claims, or magical.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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27-10-2015, 06:49 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(27-10-2015 05:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Once again, you take your biases and prejudices pointed out to you by others, and project them back onto us.

Many of us once believed like you do, in a historical and magical Jesus.

No, we belonged to an entirely different set of trajectories, and upbringing, with historically distinct factors, including ethnic, cultural, and economic differences. I was born in place in which being a christian was a minority, seeped in a generational history of a Christianity void of any political or national ties, and a variety of factors unique to us as a result, of being first generation immigrants. You didn't believe like I do, for the obvious reasons, that the lives that shaped our beliefs are dramatically different, and that extends quite a bit down, the Christianity of your parents and uncles, being an entirely different sort of thing than of my own mother and extended families.

Your Christianity is one that was eroded by learning of NT history, in courses on religion you took in college, mines only begun in the mire of all this. So let's not try and frame us as the same, at any point in our histories.

You grew up only to abandoned christianity, and acquire a resentment towards it, fostered by your unbearable Christian in-laws. You found yourself seeking after a community that defines itself by it's absence of religion. You entire perception of yourself, of your mental capacities, and reasoning abilities, is built on a belief in the "other" a deluded and feeble religious believer, who you must see yourself as towering above. To imagine a religious a believer who knows and understands a considerable more than you, is the very idea of anathema, ain't that right? And you'll go to considerable lengths, even incorporating horribly bad arguments, to preserve this image of yourself, taking comfort in the fact of belonging to a community that nurtures this very image.

You imagine your projections are accurate, and my projections are false. It can't be any other way right? You accuse me of making false projections, without for a minute considering the falseness of your own.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-10-2015, 07:02 AM
Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
Are you mentally challenged? (Besides being a Christian I mean) Because it's hard for me to believe anyone is this fucking stupid Consider

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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27-10-2015, 08:05 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(26-10-2015 08:22 PM)Stevil Wrote:  There was a living person that created the character "Yeshua" and preached of the life and times and miracles of Yeshua.
Others picked up on this character and wrote made up stories attributed to him as well.

Okay so there was no historical Yeshua, just a living person that created the character and a story involving him. A JK Rowling to a Harry Potter. This living person was just telling a story, to convey some spiritual or moral truths, using a fictional Jewish Messiah named Yeshua, as a device to convey these truths, sort of like the person who invented the George Washington and the Cherry Tree story.

Perhaps this living author, had an early version of a book club, who heard his story, and understood it’s spiritual and moral truths, but absent of any real historical beliefs regarding the character. Perhaps even Paul was a part of such a group. As the group grew overtime, the stories grew along with it, acquiring some historical beliefs in the process, though the original story didn’t require this.

Quote:Are you on drugs?
Are you trying to tell me that some Christians know that their messiah is a made up fictional character but they believe in him anyway?

So let’s get this straight. You don’t think it’s nutty (on drugs) to believe in a JK Rowling like person that created a fictional character, named Yeshua, to convey primarily spiritual or moral meanings, but not historical truths. You just think it’s nutty to believe there were early followers of such a Yeshua, who believed in a variety of spiritual and moral truths about him, but not any historical ones?

Or in other words you think that the basis foundational gist of pretty much every mythicist argument, from Price, to Carrier, to Doherty, is nutty?

Quote:Because you believe your place in heaven is dependant on you believing in Jesus.
Don't you?

No, I don’t think my place in heaven is dependent on holding some set of historical beliefs regarding Yeshua, if that what you’re asking here. Now I do hold a variety of historical beliefs regarding Yeshua, and believe as you put it, that it would require drugs to believe the absurd conclusions of mythicists, like Carrier, and company. But I’m not as particularly dependent on any of these historical beliefs to the extent that you imagine.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-10-2015, 08:16 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(27-10-2015 07:02 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Are you mentally challenged? (Besides being a Christian I mean) Because it's hard for me to believe anyone is this fucking stupid Consider

No, you're just unable to recognize how drastically your negative religious experiences, have polluted your thought process, how it effects you ability to compose complete thoughts, introspective conclusions, etc.. when ever the topic of religion comes up.

You confined yourself to a community which nurture this condition for you, hides you from ever truly recognizing how polluted and distorted your thought process is.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-10-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(27-10-2015 08:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 07:02 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Are you mentally challenged? (Besides being a Christian I mean) Because it's hard for me to believe anyone is this fucking stupid Consider

No, you're just unable to recognize how drastically your negative religious experiences, have polluted your thought process, how it effects you ability to compose complete thoughts, introspective conclusions, etc.. when ever the topic of religion comes up.

You confined yourself to a community which nurture this condition for you, hides you from ever truly recognizing how polluted and distorted your thought process is.

Facepalm Still playing shrink I see.

I get it. Reality is hard. Truth isn't always nice and pleasant to hear. The cognitive dissonance is deeply ingrained in you, and yet here you are...on an atheist forum...peddling your bullshit.

Are you that insecure in your beliefs that you feel the need to constantly defend your faith to atheists, requiring you to lie about your intentions and ignore everything they say in reply?

Do you think (arrogantly from your ignorance) that you're converting anyone to your line of reasoning about anything (let alone your faith)?

Or do you think you are reinforcing the stereotype of the arrogant and moronic theist who can't see the forest through the trees?

Drinking Beverage Don't answer, I really don't care about your special pleading and I already have my guess about the above answers.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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