Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
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30-06-2015, 07:54 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
Again, Tacitus NEVER mentioned Christ.

Hang on let me dig out my book...

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30-06-2015, 07:59 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(30-06-2015 07:54 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Again, Tacitus NEVER mentioned Christ.

Hang on let me dig out my book...

lol

Denialism ... gotta love it, eh?

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30-06-2015, 08:02 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
Found the passage and also the passage on the net. Tacitus mentions Christus. Suetonius Chrestus.

With incorrect names it is not really a good idea to use it to confirm anything.

Here is the passage. It is easy to forget. I just got Suetonius' passage confused with Tacitus. Shocking

The passage in question:
Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

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30-06-2015, 08:06 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(30-06-2015 07:59 PM)Free Wrote:  lol

Denialism ... gotta love it, eh?

One's doubting oneself for a moment is a bad thing when searching for accuracy???

As can be seen above, Tacitus never said Christ.

Also I think it important to remember Tacitus' politics. His family had suffered under the Julio Claudians and Tacitus had an axe to grind.

Also Roman and Greek history differed to modern history. They were less interested in facts and more interested in creating excitement for the reader.

At the end of the day, Christus is not Christ.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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30-06-2015, 08:11 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(30-06-2015 08:02 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Found the passage and also the passage on the net. Tacitus mentions Christus. Suetonius Chrestus.

With incorrect names it is not really a good idea to use it to confirm anything.

Here is the passage. It is easy to forget. I just got Suetonius' passage confused with Tacitus. Shocking

The passage in question:
Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

You do of course understand that "Christus" is the Latin spelling for Christ, right? Christos is the Greek form, and Christ is what we get in English.

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30-06-2015, 08:16 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(30-06-2015 08:11 PM)Free Wrote:  
(30-06-2015 08:02 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Found the passage and also the passage on the net. Tacitus mentions Christus. Suetonius Chrestus.

With incorrect names it is not really a good idea to use it to confirm anything.

Here is the passage. It is easy to forget. I just got Suetonius' passage confused with Tacitus. Shocking

The passage in question:
Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

You do of course understand that "Christus" is the Latin spelling for Christ, right? Christos is the Greek form, and Christ is what we get in English.

Exactly. A title. The "anointed one". You know how many "anointed ones" were *recognized* as such during that period ?

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30-06-2015, 08:18 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(30-06-2015 08:11 PM)Free Wrote:  You do of course understand that "Christus" is the Latin spelling for Christ, right? Christos is the Greek form, and Christ is what we get in English.


Well I left school at 8, and I read all those books just because I liked them. So no. Thanks for the update. Thumbsup

I believe I am correct about Tacitus' politics though.

Tacitus is one of the main historical sources for the early Roman Empire. However, he wrote in an age when the Empire as a political system lead by one man (the Principate) had been established for more than a hundred years, a context which strongly coloured Tacitus' writings. It took decades for many of the problems implicit in the imperial system to become clear to contemporaries, leading to a major debate on the nature of power and succession that would continue for centuries. The following table of dates might be helpful in setting some of the context for the following discussion of Tacitus as a historian, political analyst and ironist.
(from Michael Grant Penguin edition of the Annals).


Of course I am always willing to be corrected. Wink

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30-06-2015, 08:20 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(30-06-2015 08:16 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(30-06-2015 08:11 PM)Free Wrote:  You do of course understand that "Christus" is the Latin spelling for Christ, right? Christos is the Greek form, and Christ is what we get in English.

Exactly. A title. The "anointed one". You know how many "anointed ones" were *recognized* as such during that period ?

A title to whom?

Perhaps to the Jews, a title indeed.

But to the Greco-Romans? As far as Tacitus was concerned, Christ was merely some Jewish religious leader who got his ass kicked by Tacitus' fellow Romans.

Tacitus mentions nothing of a title, and explicitly states that a person named Christ was executed by Pointius Pilate under the rule of Caesar Tiberias.

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30-06-2015, 08:28 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(30-06-2015 08:18 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(30-06-2015 08:11 PM)Free Wrote:  You do of course understand that "Christus" is the Latin spelling for Christ, right? Christos is the Greek form, and Christ is what we get in English.


Well I left school at 8, and I read all those books just because I liked them. So no. Thanks for the update. Thumbsup

I believe I am correct about Tacitus' politics though.

Tacitus is one of the main historical sources for the early Roman Empire. However, he wrote in an age when the Empire as a political system lead by one man (the Principate) had been established for more than a hundred years, a context which strongly coloured Tacitus' writings. It took decades for many of the problems implicit in the imperial system to become clear to contemporaries, leading to a major debate on the nature of power and succession that would continue for centuries. The following table of dates might be helpful in setting some of the context for the following discussion of Tacitus as a historian, political analyst and ironist.
(from Michael Grant Penguin edition of the Annals).


Of course I am always willing to be corrected. Wink

Everyone can have an opinion. Tacitus was a lot of things, and his obvious Roman bias clearly presents itself. He even has a few little mistakes in his works, demonstrating he's as capable of flaws as anyone else.

But on the whole, his Annals are indeed considered among- if not the the best- of all ancient historical works.

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30-06-2015, 08:29 PM
RE: Richard Carrier On the Historicity of Jesus
(30-06-2015 07:40 PM)Free Wrote:  To us, here in this time period, we recognize Christ as a title. However, can we speak for those of antiquity?

In this case, yes. We are accustomed to conflating Jesus with the annointed one. They were not. Using the title as a tile meant MORE to them than it does to us.

(30-06-2015 07:40 PM)Free Wrote:  Imagine the Greco-Romans of the 1st and 2nd century. They learn of these "Chrestians" as a people who follow the teaching of someone called "Christus." They are not thinking about a title, but rather a person.

Irrelevant. A distinction with no difference. It doesn't matter. They did not know Jesus. All they knew is what they were told, and it could have all been invented.

(30-06-2015 07:40 PM)Free Wrote:  After all, Tacitus did not say that a "title" was crucified, which you will agree would be ridiculous. He spoke of the execution of a person known as Christ.

That he had heard tales about. No first-hand knowledge.

(30-06-2015 07:40 PM)Free Wrote:  I find this argument wanting.

1. Since Tacitus was a Roman historian writing Roman history ...

2. ... and is recording some history of high ranking Roman officials such Pontius Pilate and Casear Tiberias ...

3. ...and tells us right at the beginning of his history of the Great Fires of Rome (15:38) which includes Chrestians and Christus that he is using the works of previous writers ...

4 ... and is again seen accessing previous historical records in the very next paragraph following Chrestians/Christ/Pilate/Caesar in 15:45.

Therefore, Tacitus tells us twice within a span of 7 paragraphs- which includes the Chrestians/Christ account- that he is accessing the works of previously written Roman histories, and you and others think it's reasonable to say that we cannot know where he got his information from?

Yes. It is reasonable to question the whole thing. He heard about one of the christ (who may or may not be Jesus) figures and wants to blame the fires on an unpopular sect, or a sect to MAKE them unpopular.

(30-06-2015 07:40 PM)Free Wrote:  Do you think that a Roman historian, biased towards the Roman culture, would somehow think it would be necessary to add a specific footnote to the Chrestian/Christ line of text telling you specifically where he got that specific information when he already told you just previous to it, and immediately after it, that he was accessing previously written Roman histories for his information?

He could have got it from anywhere. We know there were all sorts of christ figures. There is really no way to be sure which one he had HEARD about.

(30-06-2015 07:40 PM)Free Wrote:  This is evidence: Tacitus got his information from previously written Roman historical accounts, and says so twice within the context. It is completely unreasonable to expect a 1st/2nd century historian to assign footnotes and citations to a single line of text in anticipation of what we may think some 2000 years later.

But it's all smoke and mirrors. There is no *information* there. The use of a common title proves NOTHING with respect to a specific person named Jesus.

For anyone to expect such a ridiculous thing, we may as well throw out all ancient historical books as having no value all because citations were not added to each and every last line of text written within them.

(30-06-2015 07:40 PM)Free Wrote:  Sorry, but history doesn't work the way you want it to. It is what it is, and that's all ya get.

And what we get from Tacitus, from beginning to end, is actually quite remarkable with, or without, the Chrestians and Christ.

But no real actual *evidence* for a person named Jesus, even though you keep asserting it is. If *Christ* was an invention of Paul, everything Tacitus and you say could STILL be true. There is no *there* there ... in what you claim to be "arguments".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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