Riot in France
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22-07-2013, 08:49 AM
RE: Riot in France
(22-07-2013 08:14 AM)morondog Wrote:  I thought you guys were keen on personal freedoms and so forth... And what about those Muslims born in Europe ? You wanna deport them too ?

They do, which is precisely why European governments are working to prevent Islam from gaining the upper hand. If the Muslims that are born here still retain the violent fundamentalist rhetoric that immigrants maintain, they will be imprisoned. I cannot believe you are naturally this obtuse.

(22-07-2013 08:14 AM)morondog Wrote:  Theocracy argument is... not exactly convincing either. They'd have to attain majority population *and* overcome all the resistance... and if they did, if that's what the majority wanted... isn't that democracy ?

I invite you to take a look at the birthrates in Europe. Islam is slowly claiming the continent, which is what we are trying to prevent with our current legislation.

(22-07-2013 08:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  So the way to defend against your *democratic* country becoming a theocracy by vote of the people is... ?

Letting the people vote against the Islamic community. The native European population still maintains the majority, and more recent voting records show that Europeans are in favor of restricting Islam's violent tendencies.

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22-07-2013, 09:09 AM
RE: Riot in France
(22-07-2013 08:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  So the way to defend against your *democratic* country becoming a theocracy by vote of the people is... ?

Secularism written in to the constitution.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-07-2013, 09:22 AM
RE: Riot in France
(22-07-2013 08:49 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I cannot believe you are naturally this obtuse.

Thanks Dodgy
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22-07-2013, 09:30 AM
RE: Riot in France
(22-07-2013 08:49 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If the Muslims that are born here still retain the violent fundamentalist rhetoric that immigrants maintain, they will be imprisoned.
IMO, the question is not whether the violent rhetoric should be legal or not, it's *why* is it there ? Sure, in the short term you can imprison them. Long term... you need to cut off the rhetoric at the source... i.e. find the reason. No one blows themselves up for abstract concepts. There's gotta be some depth of feeling there.

Quote:Islam is slowly claiming the continent, which is what we are trying to prevent with our current legislation.

Letting the people vote against the Islamic community.
The goal is institutionalized discrimination on religious grounds ? Am I distorting what you said ?
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22-07-2013, 09:33 AM
RE: Riot in France
(22-07-2013 09:09 AM)Chas Wrote:  Secularism written in to the constitution.

It is quite an amazing idea Smile But clearly e.g. the French don't have a helluva lot of confidence in it.
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22-07-2013, 09:41 AM
RE: Riot in France
(22-07-2013 09:22 AM)morondog Wrote:  Thanks Dodgy

I am saying that you are being willfully obtuse. If not, I really don't see anything that you cannot understand by reading my posts above.

(22-07-2013 09:30 AM)morondog Wrote:  IMO, the question is not whether the violent rhetoric should be legal or not, it's *why* is it there ? Sure, in the short term you can imprison them. Long term... you need to cut off the rhetoric at the source... i.e. find the reason. No one blows themselves up for abstract concepts. There's gotta be some depth of feeling there.

They are violent because the majority of native Europeans are not Islamic.

(22-07-2013 09:30 AM)morondog Wrote:  The goal is institutionalized discrimination on religious grounds ? Am I distorting what you said ?

You have certainly distorted what I said. I am saying that the governments are attempting to preserve the secular qualities of their constitutions. The Islamic right are threatening that.

(22-07-2013 09:33 AM)morondog Wrote:  It is quite an amazing idea Smile But clearly e.g. the French don't have a helluva lot of confidence in it.

Again, you seem to be assuming this legislation is specifically targeting the religious community. I have already demonstrated how it is not.

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22-07-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: Riot in France
I'm ok with "Logica Humano" about what he said in his last message.
Quote:"They are violent because the majority of native Europeans are not Islamic.".

Read a translation of the ninth surah of the Qur'an (read it in Arabic , this is better if you can) , called التوبة who means the repentance.

Original language (use the function copy and paste to use the link from Wikisource) :
1.http://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/القرآن_الكريم/سورة_التوبة
2.Altafsir.com : Select the surah of your choice
3.Streathammosque.org : The whole Quran in Original language in PDF
4.Yabiladi.com : Direct link to this surah
5.Quran.com : Another direct link to this surah

Links to some translations of this surah :
1.Translation of Maulana Muhammad Ali in Wikisource
2.Translation of Progressive Muslims Organization in Wikisource
3.Translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali in Wikisource
4.Altafsir.com : Here you can find many translations in English language.
5.Yabiladi.com : Another link to a translation.
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22-07-2013, 03:38 PM
RE: Riot in France
(22-07-2013 09:41 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I am saying that you are being willfully obtuse.
I'm not. You are correct, I maybe have not understood some of your replies... Anyway... I'm gonna leave the discussion here.
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22-07-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: Riot in France
(22-07-2013 03:38 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(22-07-2013 09:41 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I am saying that you are being willfully obtuse.
I'm not. You are correct, I maybe have not understood some of your replies... Anyway... I'm gonna leave the discussion here.

I apologize for insulting you.

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22-07-2013, 11:02 PM
RE: Riot in France
(22-07-2013 03:42 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  I apologize for insulting you.

Nah... getting insulted is my choice... It's better if you just say what you think straight out like you did - prefer that to pretending Smile But... thanks. You'll notice that my admission that what you said made some sense was made with considerably less grace than your apology Tongue You made the case strongly... and I think the major reason it seemed so unreasonable to me was not knowing the background story.
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