Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
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22-01-2014, 12:50 PM
Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
Events and polls in recent years have shown an alarming rise in antisemitism in Europe.

Some of the results are alarming:

When asked if jews had to much power in the buisness world: 73% percent of Hungarians said yes! 60% of Spaniards and 54% of Poles.

Overall the study concludes that 70% of the Hungarian population, 60% of the Spanish population and 50% of the Polish population show antisemetic tendencies.

Ironicaly, one of the countries with the least antisemetic attitudes in Europe is Germany. Britain and the Netherlands are the only 2 countries showing less antisemetic tendencies, yet antisemitism is on the rise in those countries.

In France, studies show that the antisemitism in the country is also greatly conected to the muslim population, but is also present amongst the rest of the population with 40% of the French showing antisemetic tendencies. A thrid of the European jewish population feels no longer safe in Europe and especialy in France jews are leaving the country.

The only jewish comunities in Europe that are growing are those in Britain and Germany.



It is really shamefull.

And I somehow ask myself if we are the only country on this continent which tried to learn somethingout of WW2 (besides the shity East Germany)

http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files...tes_en.pdf

http://archive.adl.org/anti_semitism/adl...y_2012.pdf


(lost some of the studies and polls that I was reading in the past days)

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22-01-2014, 01:18 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
I must say I am surprised. There has always been some form of anti-Semitism in most European countries. In my experience it was just a few hard core groups, generally gangs of brainless football hooligan types. I can understand a rise in those countries with a large Muslim population.

For example, in the UK it seems that right wing groups have shifted their attention away from the Jewish, Black (and Irish) communities, and are concentrating more on the Muslim community.

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22-01-2014, 05:24 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
Let's be honest. Muslims want the Jews dead. Period. Muslims want the state of Israel gone. Period. If they're true to their religion, this isn't negotiable, and no amount of appeasement will change their minds. Muslim children are indoctrinated in the madrases, to believe that Jews are sub-humans, pigs, apes, and not deserving of equality, dignity or respect.
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24-01-2014, 11:22 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
If I could figure out what agency does Israel's PR and marketing, and hire them to promote my small business's product like they promote Israel, I'd be the richest man alive. Imagine if it was socially unacceptable to rate my product anything but 5 stars, and if anybody voiced any criticism of my product, they'd become a pariah, banned from posting comments.

During the Clinton years, while living in Switzerland, it was kind of cool to be American. After Bush invaded and decimated Iraq, if I mentioned that I was American I'd just get evil looks. I started saying I was "Canadian-adjacent". Was this considered racist? Hardly, it was perfectly understandable that when one country acts like a bully like the US did, the world will be displeased. Nobody likes a bully, so it wasn't considered a 'rise in anti-Americanism', but rather a natural reaction to bad foreign policy.

Now, on to Israel. They've made unprovoked attacks on all their neighbors. They've invaded and enslaved the Palestinian people, stripping those in the occupied territories of the right to vote and to determine their own future. They setup kangaroo courts so that when a Palestinian commits even a minor infraction, the courts take away their home and give it to Jews, who are staking claim on the Palestinian lands. As Jimmy Carter said, it really is a system of apartheid in Palestine--Jews can vote, for example, Arabs cannot. When the Palestinians rebel, Israel dropped white phosphorous on them, burning them alive. Israel builds walls around their neighborhoods, trapping them into giant prison cells. Imagine if the US did the same thing, and declared that because black communities have a higher rate of crime than white communities, the government built giant barrier walls around the black communities, trapping them, not even allowing them to go to work. Israel's right-wing politicians even openly embrace a policy of expulsion--just round the Palestinians up, like the Germans did to the Jews, drive them into some neighboring desert and dump them. They're also the biggest hypocrites, calling for bombing Iran because maybe Iran someday will have a nuclear weapon, all the while Israel is building massive stockpiles of nuclear weapons in direction violation of international law. And when foreign countries got together to deliver food and humanitarian aid to the Palestinians that were being starved to death by Israel, Israel invaded the relief ships and murdered the humanitarians on board.

Yet, if somebody criticizes Israel, they are branded the worst of all racists: anti-Semitic. Backlash against Israelis is not considered a normal reaction to Israel's horrific foreign policy. No, it's a horrible atrocity, akin to saying you own slaves. When Noam Chomsky, arguably the world's leading intellectual, criticized Israel, he was banned from the country. I and I made a lot of stupid, ridiculous, and dangerous posts, like claiming that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. Yet those posts were ok--what got him banned from the forum were factually accurate posts about Israel.... On an atheist forum of all places.

Compare that to, say, Iran. Iran, unlike Israel, hasn't attacked anybody for over 200 years. Before the US overthrew their government, they were a modern, progressive society, ahead of Western Europe in many ways. They've been shat on for decades, and it's considered for decades and it's an perfectly sport to bash them. When an American-born and raised teenager of Iranian descent was overheard in a US Apple store speaking Farsi to her parents, she was banned from the store and told Apple won't sell products to Iranians. It hardly made the news. Imagine, by contrast, the reaction if Apple were to put a "NO JEWS ALLOWED" sign on their storefront.

Seriously, if any other country in the world behaved like Israel does, their citizens would be pariahs--and nobody would say it was an alarming trend, but rather a natural reaction to their foreign policy. Israel, however, has somehow managed to convince the world the rules don't apply to them, and if anybody criticizes them, it's "alarming" and "shameful". And, btw, I've been to Israel, I selected a jewish business partner, and when I lived in NY, half my friends were jewish, so I'm not saying Israeli's are bad--just that Israel's foreign policy is horrific and it's natural that there are consequences.
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26-01-2014, 12:32 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2014 01:18 PM by Moodie.)
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
As a jewish atheist whose father lost all his family in WW2 ... rescued from years in refugee camp by British jews who paid for him to come to UK ... and age 16 was fighting in Israel 1949 ...

.....and who said that his experience of all the boys he knew fighting there really didn't know why they had come ...

... and who had a stateless passport valid in most countries except the one he was born in [Poland] ... a place where they had a pogrom *after* the war ...

Well ... it's a big story and I have a lot to say. But this is my 'quick' reply. [!]

I myself am not pro-Israel but recognise that in other circumstances I might've become an Israeli and hope that I would be actively working towards peace and justice for Palestinians who in my opinion have a more just 'right to return' than myself.

BUT - however dispicable Israel acts it is not a reason to hate jews, it is a pretext imo since most jews alive today do not live there. In fact, less than claimed ...this is another subject not for this 'quick post'! Being anti-Jews like any other form of people-hatred is usually a product of IGNORANCE and stupid propaganda blaming, to fill a void of grievances, isn't it? The 3 countries with the highest population of anti-Jewish thinking are those with the least likelihood of a person meeting a jew, I imagine.

As for the State of Israel: I dislike many aspects of the original 'Zionist project' in any event - it was a secular ie atheist enterprise purporting to be the answer to anti-semitism - a safe haven - via the 'revival' of the Palestine as the homeland for people of jewish background who thereby would be converted into 'New Jews' who you might term a 'Modern Hebrew' - taught to dismiss the culture[s] of the diaspora, look down on shtetl life and Yiddish, for example.

I think it is and was a 'false messiah' for both religious and secular people of jewish heritage, most of whom did not actually support it ... at least until after the Holocaust, when it gained so much more widespread support from jewish people ... [apart from the serious problem all over the world of millions of displaced persons not just jews].

I too have so many criticisms of the Zionist project and the current government and State of Israel .... it would be wonderful if there could be an atheist single-state democratic solution for the welfare of all people in that area. And while I dream on, the Palestinians suffer and the mightily imperfect 2-state religion-embroiled solution is the best we can probably hope to work for ....

And / but it is important to say that anti-Jewish people would exist with or without Israel ... although yes, maybe it don't help. But if you want to hate Jews or any other people, you will find reasons to make a lie out of a drop of truth ... if you're a Christian needing 'authority' to hate, then the Gospels can be used or a hateful priest; if you're Muslim, then you can find stuff in the Koran and ditto.

Justified grievances against the State of Israel concern primarily Palestinians. But Spanish, Polish and Hungarians? Come on, be real. Why not Swedes and British ... actually the British have more reason ....ok, ok, not here, another time .... But going back to Spanish, Polish and Hungarians, these are countries where jews were expelled so not many left except lucky rich ones with Spanish holiday homes perhaps .... and I wonder Soviet communism imposed on Poland and Hungary put a lid on the good old anti-Jew tradition; plus in Spain, the effect of Franco Fascism, the Catholic Church plus Muslim immigrants in Spain joining an existing culture/tradition of blaming the Chosen Few who *still* refuse to convert to the One True Faith.

But there is also the political dimension, context and history of Zionism, Arab nationalism and Western Interests that I shall omit from this 'short version'.

Finally, just to say that I myself wrestle with questions of identity since tribalism is such a part of human make up and the things I was brought up with which I don't believe in are different to the things you were brought up with and don't believe in ... and this results in different perspectives between atheists of different backgrounds - so much is so obvious?

And since the Holocaust was such a massive disaster to befall humanity/my people/my father and one that has terrible implications for humanity and leaves psychological scars that do not end with the generation directly affected/

If the Holocaust hadn't happened then I might be happy to call myself an atheist pure and simple, never attend a Passover seder and be completely anti-Zionist with no nuance or grey areas. Hypothetically I might be as anti-Jewish just as I would be anti-Christian, anti-Muslim or anti any other faith. But the history of jews [the people] and of Judaism [the religion] cannot be forgotten easily and it had/has consequences that I must try to live with confusion, chaos and the ugly messed up truth. Isn't that the life for every freethinking atheist or is that just me?

Moodie x
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26-01-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
I don't know why the Germany thing surprises you. Germans have had it beat into them for 60 years "It's not okay to say you hate Jews".
Anyhow, I would guess that Islam has a lot to do with it as well though I don't have any figures to back up that guess.

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26-01-2014, 01:27 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2014 02:09 PM by The Germans are coming.)
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
(26-01-2014 01:16 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I don't know why the Germany thing surprises you. Germans have had it beat into them for 60 years "It's not okay to say you hate Jews".
Anyhow, I would guess that Islam has a lot to do with it as well though I don't have any figures to back up that guess.

I am not suprised about us, I am suprised that others refused to learn.

And you are right, I have seen polls that show that especialy in Scandinavian countries and France, the muslim population causes antisemitism.

There is this revealing part in this news segment on hungarian fascists by Channel 4 News:





In which a Syrian imigrant voices his support for fascists.

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28-01-2014, 04:52 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
I would agree with some of what Moodie said - blaming Israel for a trend in global anti-Semitism is more of an excuse to unleash pre-Israel institutionalized anti-Semitism which was widespread throughout Europe and the middle East.
I have family who lived in Iraq PRE Israel and had to deal with arab nationalist fascist mobs who were trying to emulate Nazism. As for Europe - I don't think I need to comment.

As an atheist I do not have any religious Zionist baggage, but I have lived in Israel and know for a fact there is wide spread propaganda vilifying Israel whilst neighbouring countries have abysmal human rights records which hardly ever get mentioned. I am not defending what Israeli atrocities that there are - two wrongs don't make a right - however the conflict with Palestinians runs much deeper than religion and has nationalistic, political, economic & many sociological factors.

Consider - last time I was in Israel one of my family members was in Haddasah hospital in Jerusalem - much of the staff and many of the patients were arab-Israelis all getting the same treatments and virtually all the hospital is funded from Jewish charities - and a large proportion of patients were arab. This sort of thing gives me hope that people can live together in harmony.
One fifth of the entire population of Israel are made up of arabs and for the most part few of them would want to live under Palestinian control considering they have higher quality of life that virtually anywhere else in the middle east (except the super Arab oil rich, low population countries like Kuwait or United Arab Emirates. The arab-Israelis also have their parliament members who are influential on the political left and just walking around cafe's, beaches and shops get along quite well in a mixed population (eg in old Jaffa which is majority Arab or much of Jerusalem. in Jaffa you can walk along mixed beaches with Arabs & Israelis)

Why do I mention disproportional propaganda ? Consider in Syria in 3 years 130,000 have been killed whilst in all the arab-Israeli conflict since 1860 something like 120,000 have been killed - including the major international wars (which are also partly proxy due to cold-war).
Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, 13,000 Israelis and Palestinians were killed in conflict with each other between 1948 and 1997.[225] Other estimations give 14,500 killed between 1948–2009

Compare this to the current Iraq war with the west or Afghanistan - where media are virtually not present to see damage done by US/UK/NATO or self inflicted (mostly ~75%) through sectarian violence (? figures run into ~200,000 in 10 years for Iraq & ~45,000 for Afghanistan).

Of course no war or conflict does good and its important to pursue peace - I think it is possible judging by friends we have with arab-Israelis & other organizations which bring people on opposing sides together on a local level - once people know that "opposing" people share much in common in a humanistic sense it really helps build trust & solidarity.
The problem is what was a nationalistic conflict today has religious overtones - Israel's modern formation was extremely bad timing in 1948 by UN due to the rise of Arab nationalism at exactly same time as independence was given to multiple Arab countries surrounding Israel.

Today the hard right Israeli right wing religious are fanatics who sabotage peace whilst on the Arab side multiple groups of Islamic fundamentalists are not exactly the easiest people to get along with EVEN if there was no nationalistic problems !!!
(I'm sure I don't have to spell this out on an atheist forum that Islamic fundamentalists are not the most well balanced rational people)
If Israel didn't exist I would not be surprized if the Islamic fundamentalists wouldn't have created a civil war - lucky for them Israel is a distraction unifying them. (well, not quite considering PLO & Hamas had a civil war and still not united)

My basic point is the Arab/Israeli conflict is not a one sided but has a complex history intertwined with many narratives of injustice & revenge and abilities to make peace.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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28-01-2014, 05:11 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
(28-01-2014 04:52 PM)Baruch Wrote:  One fifth of the entire population of Israel are made up of arabs... The arab-Israelis also have their parliament members who are influential on the political left and just walking around cafe's, beaches and shops get along quite well in a mixed population

Baruch, you make lots of good points. But I think you're missing the bigger picture. Israel is, constitutionally, a democracy, and the majority gets to make the laws. So the only way for Israel to exist is if the number of arabs allowed to participate is kept to a minimum (the 1/5 you mentioned). If Israel allowed all Palestinians to participate in the process, Israel would no longer be a Jewish state. So, to maintain the impression of a democracy, yet still retain control, they have to maintain a system where some arabs are "let into the club", but not too many, creating a divide that some arabs can live and move about freely, while others live in giant prisons surrounded by security walls.

When I said Israel had a system akin to apartheid, I was very careful to say that the division is NOT between Jews and Arabs, because it's not, the division is between those in the occupied territories vs. those not. Those in the occupied territories ARE not equal, they lack freedom of mobility, they do not control their own ports (Israel can block humanitarian vessels), they do not control their own airstrips, they cannot move freely between their own towns, they cannot vote on national matters. They are oppressed, just like blacks in apartheid South Africa. I realize it's a very complicated issue. The only point I was making is that when a country behaves badly, it's natural that this will effect the way others see their citizens. Even an anti-apartheid, pro-equality white person in old South Africa, would have been looked down upon in many parts of the world. Sure, it's more uneducated, closed-minded people who stereotype all South Africans as being bad because of their policy, and more educated open-minded types treat everyone as individuals. My point was that this problem isn't limited to Jews. Even I, as an American, felt it living in Europe after the Iraq War. I was very, very anti-war, yet, still, the bad behavior of my country had an effect on the way people looked at me when they heard my American accent. I'd diffuse by joking that "I'm actually Canadian adjacent". But Israeli's cannot expect that the Palestinian situation won't effect how others view them.
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28-01-2014, 05:12 PM
Re: RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
(24-01-2014 11:22 PM)frankksj Wrote:  If I could figure out what agency does Israel's PR and marketing, and hire them to promote my small business's product like they promote Israel, I'd be the richest man alive. Imagine if it was socially unacceptable to rate my product anything but 5 stars, and if anybody voiced any criticism of my product, they'd become a pariah, banned from posting comments.

During the Clinton years, while living in Switzerland, it was kind of cool to be American. After Bush invaded and decimated Iraq, if I mentioned that I was American I'd just get evil looks. I started saying I was "Canadian-adjacent". Was this considered racist? Hardly, it was perfectly understandable that when one country acts like a bully like the US did, the world will be displeased. Nobody likes a bully, so it wasn't considered a 'rise in anti-Americanism', but rather a natural reaction to bad foreign policy.

Now, on to Israel. They've made unprovoked attacks on all their neighbors. They've invaded and enslaved the Palestinian people, stripping those in the occupied territories of the right to vote and to determine their own future. They setup kangaroo courts so that when a Palestinian commits even a minor infraction, the courts take away their home and give it to Jews, who are staking claim on the Palestinian lands. As Jimmy Carter said, it really is a system of apartheid in Palestine--Jews can vote, for example, Arabs cannot. When the Palestinians rebel, Israel dropped white phosphorous on them, burning them alive. Israel builds walls around their neighborhoods, trapping them into giant prison cells. Imagine if the US did the same thing, and declared that because black communities have a higher rate of crime than white communities, the government built giant barrier walls around the black communities, trapping them, not even allowing them to go to work. Israel's right-wing politicians even openly embrace a policy of expulsion--just round the Palestinians up, like the Germans did to the Jews, drive them into some neighboring desert and dump them. They're also the biggest hypocrites, calling for bombing Iran because maybe Iran someday will have a nuclear weapon, all the while Israel is building massive stockpiles of nuclear weapons in direction violation of international law. And when foreign countries got together to deliver food and humanitarian aid to the Palestinians that were being starved to death by Israel, Israel invaded the relief ships and murdered the humanitarians on board.

Yet, if somebody criticizes Israel, they are branded the worst of all racists: anti-Semitic. Backlash against Israelis is not considered a normal reaction to Israel's horrific foreign policy. No, it's a horrible atrocity, akin to saying you own slaves. When Noam Chomsky, arguably the world's leading intellectual, criticized Israel, he was banned from the country. I and I made a lot of stupid, ridiculous, and dangerous posts, like claiming that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. Yet those posts were ok--what got him banned from the forum were factually accurate posts about Israel.... On an atheist forum of all places.

Compare that to, say, Iran. Iran, unlike Israel, hasn't attacked anybody for over 200 years. Before the US overthrew their government, they were a modern, progressive society, ahead of Western Europe in many ways. They've been shat on for decades, and it's considered for decades and it's an perfectly sport to bash them. When an American-born and raised teenager of Iranian descent was overheard in a US Apple store speaking Farsi to her parents, she was banned from the store and told Apple won't sell products to Iranians. It hardly made the news. Imagine, by contrast, the reaction if Apple were to put a "NO JEWS ALLOWED" sign on their storefront.

Seriously, if any other country in the world behaved like Israel does, their citizens would be pariahs--and nobody would say it was an alarming trend, but rather a natural reaction to their foreign policy. Israel, however, has somehow managed to convince the world the rules don't apply to them, and if anybody criticizes them, it's "alarming" and "shameful". And, btw, I've been to Israel, I selected a jewish business partner, and when I lived in NY, half my friends were jewish, so I'm not saying Israeli's are bad--just that Israel's foreign policy is horrific and it's natural that there are consequences.

There is growing anti-Semitism on this forum too.

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