Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
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28-01-2014, 05:19 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
(26-01-2014 01:27 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(26-01-2014 01:16 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I don't know why the Germany thing surprises you. Germans have had it beat into them for 60 years "It's not okay to say you hate Jews".
Anyhow, I would guess that Islam has a lot to do with it as well though I don't have any figures to back up that guess.

I am not suprised about us, I am suprised that others refused to learn.

And you are right, I have seen polls that show that especialy in Scandinavian countries and France, the muslim population causes antisemitism.

There is this revealing part in this news segment on hungarian fascists by Channel 4 News:





In which a Syrian imigrant voices his support for fascists.

It's easy for them to blame their shitty lives on the Jewish conspiracy rather than actually looking towards the real issues and solving those issues.
It's also an easy way for them to explain things that they so clearly have no fucking clue about.

There's a financial crisis, obviously it's all part of the Zionist conspiracy...

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28-01-2014, 06:14 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
(28-01-2014 05:11 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(28-01-2014 04:52 PM)Baruch Wrote:  One fifth of the entire population of Israel are made up of arabs... The arab-Israelis also have their parliament members who are influential on the political left and just walking around cafe's, beaches and shops get along quite well in a mixed population

Baruch, you make lots of good points. But I think you're missing the bigger picture. Israel is, constitutionally, a democracy, and the majority gets to make the laws. So the only way for Israel to exist is if the number of arabs allowed to participate is kept to a minimum (the 1/5 you mentioned). If Israel allowed all Palestinians to participate in the process, Israel would no longer be a Jewish state. So, to maintain the impression of a democracy, yet still retain control, they have to maintain a system where some arabs are "let into the club", but not too many, creating a divide that some arabs can live and move about freely, while others live in giant prisons surrounded by security walls.

When I said Israel had a system akin to apartheid, I was very careful to say that the division is NOT between Jews and Arabs, because it's not, the division is between those in the occupied territories vs. those not. Those in the occupied territories ARE not equal, they lack freedom of mobility, they do not control their own ports (Israel can block humanitarian vessels), they do not control their own airstrips, they cannot move freely between their own towns, they cannot vote on national matters. They are oppressed, just like blacks in apartheid South Africa. I realize it's a very complicated issue. The only point I was making is that when a country behaves badly, it's natural that this will effect the way others see their citizens. Even an anti-apartheid, pro-equality white person in old South Africa, would have been looked down upon in many parts of the world. Sure, it's more uneducated, closed-minded people who stereotype all South Africans as being bad because of their policy, and more educated open-minded types treat everyone as individuals. My point was that this problem isn't limited to Jews. Even I, as an American, felt it living in Europe after the Iraq War. I was very, very anti-war, yet, still, the bad behavior of my country had an effect on the way people looked at me when they heard my American accent. I'd diffuse by joking that "I'm actually Canadian adjacent". But Israeli's cannot expect that the Palestinian situation won't effect how others view them.

The 1/5 arab Israeli population are those who remained in Israel side from the 1948 border (with some of East Jerusalem in 1967 who have Israeli citizenship) - and I agree those outside of the UN partition are not Israeli citizens but mostly live under an autonomous control of the PLO in west bank (at least the main cities) or Hamas in Gaza (total autonomy - but restricted border to Israel)
.
Those in autonomous PLO & Hamas rule can vote, they had their own elections and parliament(s) [separate in Gaza due to civil war] and will inevitably become a separate state - probably in the near future.

Most of the PLO territories are not occupied in the major cities - however you are quite correct to point out that there are checkpoint restrictions between the bottlenecks between PLO cities and there is a wall around the west bank areas and Gaza entrance to Israel. There is also an area occupied adjacent to the Jordanian border limiting direct contact between the PLO and Jordan via access points (these are strategic hills with very low population density)

However - pre 1996 the Gaza border was opened and hundreds of thousands of Palestinians travelled in and out of Israel for jobs - some paid far more than any other labour force in the region (compared to Egypt/Jordan) and this did build trust between those Palestinians in Gaza and on those Israelis living on the West coast in cities like Ashdod, Sderot, Ashkilon and Tel-Aviv. It is true that separation leads to further distrust.
However around 1996 multiple suicide bombs within Israel, especially Tel-Aviv area from Gaza lead to this corridor becoming closed - and eventually it remained closed to this day. I recall this first hand considering I was not far from a bombed cafe - I would probably be splattered on the walls has I been there 30 minutes earlier during this suicide bombing campaign. After the unilateral withdrawal of Israeli occupied areas from Gaza instead of building up Gaza the Hamas decided to build missile posts to put the W.Coast of Israel under siege. It is very unlikely that the Gaza border will ever be opened in the near future whilst there is so much distrust.
I certainly don't blame all Palestinians for this - because many are not free to speak out and build relations with Israelis and were tortured and mutilated living under the oppressive regime of the PLO. I also know this first hand from befriending a Palestinian from Jenin with "moderate political views" who's family has to escape the PLO from persecution. This is even more so for Christians who live under PLO autonomous areas.

As for the wall and checkpoints- I agree this causes more problems, but it seems to be an inevitable consequence considering suicide bombs in Israel have reduced to nearly zero from 2003 onwards and before that would be a regular occurrence - You have seen what happens in Iraq, Pakistan & Afghanistan with suicide bombing almost daily, some killing up to 30 - 40 people - so I don't think "security" reasons are some conspiracy but a pragmatic self defence.

As for "Jewish settlers" in any areas that are majority PLO near Palestinian autonomous areas I am strongly against this, it is a deluded strategy and usually far right wing religious fanatics.
As a secular atheist humanist I have not much to say other than these people are deluded and most of left wing & centre Israeli society also think so considering it is a mostly secular country.
In Gaza the Israeli government dismantled all the R.Wing Jewish settlers when they unilaterally withdrew. I can see that in the near future this will probably happen in the West Bank area leading to two states.

Personally I don't think a unified state is remotely viable due to so many religious, nationalistic, political & economic differences. You say Israel does not want a unified state because it will lose the Jewish majority in a democracy - whilst this is a problem for ultra orthodox Jews, most secular Jews live a pretty much religion free life and probably wouldn't care - however they would be terrified that such a unified state would no longer be a democracy at all - look around you, all the local arab countries seem incapable of a democracy. Egypt is fragile & run by the military, Lebanon is on the brink of civil war and still has Shia/Suni/Christian tensions, Jordan is a monarchy and with a terrible human rights record but at least for now the Monarchy is under control, Saudi is an oppressive inhumane state, Syria....I need not comment, Iraq...need not comment....you get the idea.

So I don't have much hopes for a majority led arab state in Israel/Palestine unified.

Not saying these arab countries are incapable of a secular democracy in some negative judgmental way, but the arab world needs 300 years of enlightened political thought to overcome its current turmoil and separate itself from fundamentalist Islamic ideas trying to recreate their golden age of an Islamic Ummah during medieval period or authoritarian militaristic dictatorships. Whist they are not entirely to blame (i.e some of this is colonial legacy) there has to be serious reform throughout the arab world to make a real arab spring and not an arab winter.
If the arab word had European/Canadian/Western style democracy and secularism then making peace with Israel wouldn't be all that difficult. The evidence for this was Sadat managed to make peace with Israel after demonstrating quite moderate non fanatic views (and was killed by Egyptian fanatics) and so did King Hussein of Jordan (also pro western and moderately religious - wouldn't say secular but not fanatic)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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28-01-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
(28-01-2014 05:12 PM)Phil Hill Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 11:22 PM)frankksj Wrote:  If I could figure out what agency does Israel's PR and marketing, and hire them to promote my small business's product like they promote Israel, I'd be the richest man alive. Imagine if it was socially unacceptable to rate my product anything but 5 stars, and if anybody voiced any criticism of my product, they'd become a pariah, banned from posting comments.

During the Clinton years, while living in Switzerland, it was kind of cool to be American. After Bush invaded and decimated Iraq, if I mentioned that I was American I'd just get evil looks. I started saying I was "Canadian-adjacent". Was this considered racist? Hardly, it was perfectly understandable that when one country acts like a bully like the US did, the world will be displeased. Nobody likes a bully, so it wasn't considered a 'rise in anti-Americanism', but rather a natural reaction to bad foreign policy.

Now, on to Israel. They've made unprovoked attacks on all their neighbors. They've invaded and enslaved the Palestinian people, stripping those in the occupied territories of the right to vote and to determine their own future. They setup kangaroo courts so that when a Palestinian commits even a minor infraction, the courts take away their home and give it to Jews, who are staking claim on the Palestinian lands. As Jimmy Carter said, it really is a system of apartheid in Palestine--Jews can vote, for example, Arabs cannot. When the Palestinians rebel, Israel dropped white phosphorous on them, burning them alive. Israel builds walls around their neighborhoods, trapping them into giant prison cells. Imagine if the US did the same thing, and declared that because black communities have a higher rate of crime than white communities, the government built giant barrier walls around the black communities, trapping them, not even allowing them to go to work. Israel's right-wing politicians even openly embrace a policy of expulsion--just round the Palestinians up, like the Germans did to the Jews, drive them into some neighboring desert and dump them. They're also the biggest hypocrites, calling for bombing Iran because maybe Iran someday will have a nuclear weapon, all the while Israel is building massive stockpiles of nuclear weapons in direction violation of international law. And when foreign countries got together to deliver food and humanitarian aid to the Palestinians that were being starved to death by Israel, Israel invaded the relief ships and murdered the humanitarians on board.

Yet, if somebody criticizes Israel, they are branded the worst of all racists: anti-Semitic. Backlash against Israelis is not considered a normal reaction to Israel's horrific foreign policy. No, it's a horrible atrocity, akin to saying you own slaves. When Noam Chomsky, arguably the world's leading intellectual, criticized Israel, he was banned from the country. I and I made a lot of stupid, ridiculous, and dangerous posts, like claiming that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. Yet those posts were ok--what got him banned from the forum were factually accurate posts about Israel.... On an atheist forum of all places.

Compare that to, say, Iran. Iran, unlike Israel, hasn't attacked anybody for over 200 years. Before the US overthrew their government, they were a modern, progressive society, ahead of Western Europe in many ways. They've been shat on for decades, and it's considered for decades and it's an perfectly sport to bash them. When an American-born and raised teenager of Iranian descent was overheard in a US Apple store speaking Farsi to her parents, she was banned from the store and told Apple won't sell products to Iranians. It hardly made the news. Imagine, by contrast, the reaction if Apple were to put a "NO JEWS ALLOWED" sign on their storefront.

Seriously, if any other country in the world behaved like Israel does, their citizens would be pariahs--and nobody would say it was an alarming trend, but rather a natural reaction to their foreign policy. Israel, however, has somehow managed to convince the world the rules don't apply to them, and if anybody criticizes them, it's "alarming" and "shameful". And, btw, I've been to Israel, I selected a jewish business partner, and when I lived in NY, half my friends were jewish, so I'm not saying Israeli's are bad--just that Israel's foreign policy is horrific and it's natural that there are consequences.

There is growing anti-Semitism on this forum too.

It is an atheist forum, I wouldn't expect it to be Jew loving. It is also anti-Islamic anti-Christian, anti-woo woo, anti-religious etc.
Judaism is a little complicated though because people still seem to be anti-Semitic even if the jew has left orthodoxy and holds anti-religious or reformed liberal views or neutral views towards Israel (or even anti).
This is a bit weird and was especially disturbing in Nazi Germany/Austria as if its something genetic eg consider persecution of secular Jews like the Einstein's and "Jewish science" etc.
If someone leaves Christianity then they are just humans with other beliefs.

I myself identify as a philosopher & scientist not "Jewish" even though I have Jewish roots because I simply no longer believe in the Divine authority of the Torah. Within Judaism's own rules I am most certainly Jewish just an apostate - however outside the internal Jewish system I would be described as having general humanistic values.

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David Hume


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28-01-2014, 06:36 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
(28-01-2014 05:12 PM)Phil Hill Wrote:  There is growing anti-Semitism on this forum too.

I hope that's not true.


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28-01-2014, 07:12 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
It isn't.

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28-01-2014, 07:15 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
Yes it is.
As Baruch said, it's an Atheist forum. We're anti-all religions, including Judaism.

But no, we're not anti-Jew the people.

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28-01-2014, 08:37 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
I figure most western "Jews" are Jewish by culture or genetics (depending on who you ask) rather than belief in Y-H, but maybe I'm wrong. Either way they are few and far between when compared to the cultural Christians.

Also, I try not to discriminate based on religious beliefs, but it does tell you what a person isn't to some extent - The majority of theists at least are not skeptics, or not courageous enough to admit the truth to themselves. I am not counting closeted non-theists. So yes, I do discriminate against them on some level, but I don't treat them as inferior for their belief. A theist can be a much better or worse person than a non-theist.

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29-01-2014, 11:53 AM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
(28-01-2014 07:15 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Yes it is.
As Baruch said, it's an Atheist forum. We're anti-all religions, including Judaism.

But no, we're not anti-Jew the people.

Not agreeing with the jewish religion is called anti-judaiism.

Being biggoted towards the jews as an ethnicity is called antisemitism

Different terms for different things.

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29-01-2014, 12:43 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
All hefty points, I think I might have another perspective.
I live in Antwerp, Belgium. A city known for centuries as having a large jewish population.
The mostly hasidic jews live in their own neighborhood, they have their own shops, their own homes, their own everything.
They live very isolated and would rather see that none of the gentiles come across their path.
- When my bud's mother (a sales rep) went to one of 'their' stores, the owner behind the counter stepped back, stared at his shoes and didn't answer a thing she said. They're not allowed to talk to women.
- When my colleague went to one of 'their' stores on new years to buy some groceries, the guy behind the counter asked him FOUR times if there wasn't another store open. He also charged him $10 for 5 donuts.
- On an average day, they will walk around town wherever, usually on the bikepaths.
- On fridaynight, when I want to bike home from work, I can't because they are walking side by side over the street and will not move out of the way.
- Most of 'them' are very rich. They're big into the diamondtrade and hotelbusiness. Taxfraud scandals (9 to 10 figure amounts) are at least once a year.

These few examples might sound menial, but it just shows that they want to stay isolated. They build enclaves and do not participate into society.
The many tax-scandals tell me that they even refuse to pay their fair share, like we all do. While they do make use of all the available services.

So, general anti-semitism: bad.
Disapproving of a community that activly shuns general society and cheats with billions of tax-dollars: not unreasonable.

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29-01-2014, 12:48 PM
RE: Rise of antisemitism in Europe.
(29-01-2014 11:53 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Not agreeing with the jewish religion is called anti-judaiism.

Being biggoted towards the jews as an ethnicity is called antisemitism

Different terms for different things.

Which annoys us pedants who recall that "Jewish" is a subset of "semitic" to no end.

(29-01-2014 12:43 PM)Caveman Wrote:  These few examples might sound menial, but it just shows that they want to stay isolated. They build enclaves and do not participate into society.
The many tax-scandals tell me that they even refuse to pay their fair share, like we all do. While they do make use of all the available services.

So, general anti-semitism: bad.
Disapproving of a community that activly shuns general society and cheats with billions of tax-dollars: not unreasonable.

With the caveat that segregation was not originally their idea...

But no, that's fair enough. If you can't dislike the way a group of people acts then what can you dislike them for? It's kind of the exact opposite of prejudice...

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