Robvalue is Floating in the Ether of Abstract Systems
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18-10-2017, 08:55 AM
RE: Robvalue is Floating in the Ether of Abstract Systems
(18-10-2017 08:38 AM)Naielis Wrote:  ...
you can't predicate at all without assuming absolutes.
...

Did you mean "you can't predicate at all without assuming axioms"?

"Axioms" makes sense; "absolutes" does not.

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18-10-2017, 08:59 AM
RE: Robvalue is Floating in the Ether of Abstract Systems
(18-10-2017 08:55 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(18-10-2017 08:38 AM)Naielis Wrote:  ...
you can't predicate at all without assuming absolutes.
...

Did you mean "you can't predicate at all without assuming axioms"?

"Axioms" makes sense; "absolutes" does not.

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Absolute just means something that is true in all times and all places. Axiom carries foundationalist baggage with it so I've tried to stray away from it for the most part. But I don't necessarily take issue with the term as long as it's explained. However, being an axiom isn't sufficient here. There need to be absolutes within one's foundation. Otherwise you can't go on to predicate.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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18-10-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: Robvalue is Floating in the Ether of Abstract Systems
(18-10-2017 08:59 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(18-10-2017 08:55 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Did you mean "you can't predicate at all without assuming axioms"?

"Axioms" makes sense; "absolutes" does not.

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Absolute just means something that is true in all times and all places.
...

Got any examples?

Huh

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18-10-2017, 09:35 AM
RE: Robvalue is Floating in the Ether of Abstract Systems
Black and white, all or nothing thinking.

I'm quite happy to say I'm 99.9% sure that such and such will happen, because that's what all my experience up to this point has lead me to believe. I've developed consistent models which give reliable results.

I don't feel the need to proclaim there is 100% chance it will happen, and that it simply can't happen any other way; or that if I have less than 100% confidence I may as well have 0. We live in the grey area where certainty is just a feeling and isn't useful. I understand retreating to abstract worlds where everything is simple is comforting, but don't confuse this with reality.

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18-10-2017, 10:26 AM
RE: Robvalue is Floating in the Ether of Abstract Systems
(18-10-2017 08:59 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(18-10-2017 08:55 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Did you mean "you can't predicate at all without assuming axioms"?

"Axioms" makes sense; "absolutes" does not.

Thumbsup

Absolute just means something that is true in all times and all places. Axiom carries foundationalist baggage with it so I've tried to stray away from it for the most part. But I don't necessarily take issue with the term as long as it's explained. However, being an axiom isn't sufficient here. There need to be absolutes within one's foundation. Otherwise you can't go on to predicate.

Well then I guess you can just dump your predication activities, at your corner lemonaide predication stand, can't you ?
You have "absolutely" (snort) no way of even beginning to test or know what is true in "all times and all places" .... and even if you did, spacetime is a property (as far as we know now) ONLY of this universe. So what you can "predicate" on, is VERY limited, then isn't it ? And BTW, have to been to the event horizon of a black hole ? Care to tell me HOW you "absolutely" know what is going on there when the properties of spacetime are not AT ALL what they are in other "places" or at singularities ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-10-2017, 10:28 AM
RE: Robvalue is Floating in the Ether of Abstract Systems
(18-10-2017 09:21 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(18-10-2017 08:59 AM)Naielis Wrote:  Absolute just means something that is true in all times and all places.
...

Got any examples?

Huh

The laws of logic
Uniformity of nature
Reliability of senses

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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18-10-2017, 10:29 AM
RE: Robvalue is Floating in the Ether of Abstract Systems
(18-10-2017 10:26 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Well then I guess you can just dump your predication activities, at your corner lemonaide predication stand, can't you ?
You have "absolutely" (snort) no way of even beginning to test or know what is true in "all times and all places" .... and even if you did, spacetime is a property (as far as we know now) ONLY of this universe. So what you can "predicate" on, is VERY limited, then isn't it ? And BTW, have to been to the event horizon of a black hole ? Care to tell me HOW you "absolutely" know what is going on there when the properties of spacetime are not AT ALL what they are in other "places" or at singularities ?

And here is the issue. You conflate not being able to test something with not being able to know it. This is either falsificationism, scientism, or both. With any of those options, you're shooting yourself in the foot ideologically.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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18-10-2017, 10:30 AM
RE: Robvalue is Floating in the Ether of Abstract Systems
(18-10-2017 09:35 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Black and white, all or nothing thinking.

I'm quite happy to say I'm 99.9% sure that such and such will happen, because that's what all my experience up to this point has lead me to believe. I've developed consistent models which give reliable results.

I don't feel the need to proclaim there is 100% chance it will happen, and that it simply can't happen any other way; or that if I have less than 100% confidence I may as well have 0. We live in the grey area where certainty is just a feeling and isn't useful. I understand retreating to abstract worlds where everything is simple is comforting, but don't confuse this with reality.

Oh my god watch the video... I addressed this.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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18-10-2017, 10:34 AM
RE: Robvalue is Floating in the Ether of Abstract Systems
(18-10-2017 09:35 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Black and white, all or nothing thinking.

I'm quite happy to say I'm 99.9% sure that such and such will happen, because that's what all my experience up to this point has lead me to believe. I've developed consistent models which give reliable results.

I don't feel the need to proclaim there is 100% chance it will happen, and that it simply can't happen any other way; or that if I have less than 100% confidence I may as well have 0. We live in the grey area where certainty is just a feeling and isn't useful. I understand retreating to abstract worlds where everything is simple is comforting, but don't confuse this with reality.

And are you going to respond to my critique at all? I mean this thread exists because of a critique I made on your idea of abstract systems. And you're not addressing the critique. Scroll up. I made my main point pretty clear.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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18-10-2017, 10:35 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2017 10:49 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Robvalue is Floating in the Ether of Abstract Systems
(18-10-2017 08:30 AM)Naielis Wrote:  The discussion isn't about where science came from historically. It's about what grounds science ontologically.

What grounds science ontologically is observation, not logic (as I tried to explain). That's why science is separate from and different than philosophy. It's a matter of priorities.
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