Rocks with bad intentions
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10-08-2015, 09:11 AM
Rocks with bad intentions
Given some of the more recent attempts on the forum by theists to ascribe intentionality to the universe (including examples that require conscious actors), I submit the following example.

Rock falls off cliff and kills man unintentionally. World stunned that rock was able to tell world it wasn't intentional.

Is there any scenario where a rock (no conscious actor involved, including pushing the rock as that would mean the rock pusher killed them using the rock) kills a man intentionally?

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10-08-2015, 10:00 AM
RE: Rocks with bad intentions
[sarcasm] Can you prove the unintentionality of the rock, just because it seems to have occurred naturally according to the laws of physics which we observe? Because unless you can, intentionality and uninentionality are equal hypotheses with zero evidence of either and we need to go with intentional rock behavior as the default. [/sarcasm]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-08-2015, 10:01 AM
RE: Rocks with bad intentions
(10-08-2015 10:00 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  [sarcasm] Can you prove the unintentionality of the rock, just because it seems to have occurred naturally according to the laws of physics which we observe? Because unless you can, intentionality and uninentionality are equal hypotheses with zero evidence of either and we need to go with intentional rock behavior as the default. [/sarcasm]

3 fold rotational symmetry in tourmaline

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10-08-2015, 10:03 AM
RE: Rocks with bad intentions
If dog* will it then certainly such scenario is possible. Though how exactly it would look like is another of faith great mysteries.

*For the purpose of this post I'm dyslectic.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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10-08-2015, 10:15 AM
RE: Rocks with bad intentions
(10-08-2015 09:11 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Given some of the more recent attempts on the forum by theists to ascribe intentionality to the universe (including examples that require conscious actors), I submit the following example.

Rock falls off cliff and kills man unintentionally. World stunned that rock was able to tell world it wasn't intentional.

Is there any scenario where a rock (no conscious actor involved, including pushing the rock as that would mean the rock pusher killed them using the rock) kills a man intentionally?

I guess my question would be, does a rock falling off of a cliff prove that it is impossible for any god to exist? If not, then the theists aren't really going to see this as a blow.
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10-08-2015, 10:16 AM
RE: Rocks with bad intentions
(10-08-2015 10:15 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 09:11 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Given some of the more recent attempts on the forum by theists to ascribe intentionality to the universe (including examples that require conscious actors), I submit the following example.

Rock falls off cliff and kills man unintentionally. World stunned that rock was able to tell world it wasn't intentional.

Is there any scenario where a rock (no conscious actor involved, including pushing the rock as that would mean the rock pusher killed them using the rock) kills a man intentionally?

I guess my question would be, does a rock falling off of a cliff prove that it is impossible for any god to exist? If not, then the theists aren't really going to see this as a blow.

I didn't construct this as a proof against god, I constructed it as a spoof of Tomasia's idiocy

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10-08-2015, 10:51 AM
RE: Rocks with bad intentions
Suppose we don't know whether someone pushed the rock off cliff or not, and all that we see is a man smashed under a rock. We then look for evidence of someone pushing the rock off the cliff, but don't find any. Does that make us certain that no one pushed the rock? Wouldn't we need to still admit that for all we know, it is possible that someone pushed the rock off the cliff, even though there is no evidence of that?

Your assumption of negative until proven positive works great in a justice system, but is not so good for having your beliefs match reality. In court of law, innocence is presumed until guilt is proven. This is not because that's the best way to find the truth, it's because we would rather let a guilty man walk, than punish an innocent man. In other words, if we're not certain of his guilt, we'll treat him as innocent. Now let's look at OJ Simpson. It wasn't proven that he was guilty, does that make him innocent? And I don't mean in a legal sense, I'm asking if that means he did not commit the crime?
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10-08-2015, 10:53 AM
RE: Rocks with bad intentions
(10-08-2015 10:51 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Suppose we don't know whether someone pushed the rock off cliff or not, and all that we see is a man smashed under a rock. We then look for evidence of someone pushing the rock off the cliff, but don't find any. Does that make us certain that no one pushed the rock? Wouldn't we need to still admit that for all we know, it is possible that someone pushed the rock off the cliff, even though there is no evidence of that?

Your assumption of negative, until proven positive works great in a justice system, but is not so good for having your beliefs match reality. In court of law, innocence is presumed until guilt is proven. This is not because that's the best way to find the truth, it's because we would rather let a guilty man walk, than punish an innocent man. In other words, if we're not certain of his guilt, we'll treat him as innocent. Now let's look at OJ Simpson. It wasn't proven that he was guilty, does that make him innocent? And I don't mean in a legal sense, I'm asking if that means he did not commit the crime?

You are doing exactly what I said don't do. This is unequivocally an event without a consciousness involved.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-08-2015, 10:56 AM
RE: Rocks with bad intentions
(10-08-2015 10:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 10:51 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Suppose we don't know whether someone pushed the rock off cliff or not, and all that we see is a man smashed under a rock. We then look for evidence of someone pushing the rock off the cliff, but don't find any. Does that make us certain that no one pushed the rock? Wouldn't we need to still admit that for all we know, it is possible that someone pushed the rock off the cliff, even though there is no evidence of that?

Your assumption of negative, until proven positive works great in a justice system, but is not so good for having your beliefs match reality. In court of law, innocence is presumed until guilt is proven. This is not because that's the best way to find the truth, it's because we would rather let a guilty man walk, than punish an innocent man. In other words, if we're not certain of his guilt, we'll treat him as innocent. Now let's look at OJ Simpson. It wasn't proven that he was guilty, does that make him innocent? And I don't mean in a legal sense, I'm asking if that means he did not commit the crime?

You are doing exactly what I said don't do. This is unequivocally an event without a consciousness involved.

If that's the case, then here is your argument.

If you have a universe with no god, then you have a universe with no god.
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10-08-2015, 10:57 AM
RE: Rocks with bad intentions
It would be ironic if this killing stemmed from the rock that flew out of David's sling when it hit Goliath and he fell forward hitting the larger rock that fell off the cliff that killed someone.

When I have nothing to add to any arguments I resort to sarcasm and base-humor. Sadcryface

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