Roman catolics...
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17-03-2011, 02:36 AM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2011 02:42 AM by Filox.)
Roman catolics...
OK, maybe there was a discussion about this before, but since I'm new here, it's a bit hard for me to know that, so I'll state my case and if you have a thread about this, please refer me to it, so we can lock this theme. Thank you.

So, my question is a bit longer...

I've been watching different videos on youtube, documentaries, reading articles about Christianity, and it's always the same thing. People are always referring to American Christianity and Creationism. OK, I also understand, that is the worst kind of Christianity and it is scientifically "the most wrong" reading of the Bible, but still... Here is my story first.

I was raised in a Christian family, but we never went to church, or never were very religious. But we believed in God (roman-catholic) because everyone did it in our country. The thing I learned in school and church, is not to take the Bible very seriously. I mean, it is serious and truth and all that, but it's not to be taken literally. So the Adam and Eve are just a story, a myth, so is most of the old testament, like the great flood or the burning bush...

And the problem with all of this is: How to expose the Bible as a lie to people who don't read the Bible literally, but they take it as guidelines, and they understand that most of it is just a story, not the actual truth? Like my parents tell me, it's full of love and understanding, and if I try to tell them anything bad from the Bible, they just discard it as a mythical story, with some deeper meaning, taken out of the context.

So, I think it's much easier to discredit "American Christians", or Creationists, that roman-catholics. The reason? Because roman-catholics are the oldest and strongest of Christians, and they have also learned to mask their ways, so they accept science, history of the earth, and they don't take the Bible literally, they have adapted to the modern world, and that makes them even more dangerous than Creationists. How to deal with this problem?

I hope you understood what I was meaning with this.

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
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17-03-2011, 03:18 AM
RE: Roman catolics...
If you're having a direct discussion with someone, then perhaps you might ask them to show you specific examples in The Bible of where they get a specific moral from. Prompting them to identify the guidelines they're appealing to might be a good first step for them to start questioning the larger picture.

At some point, though, they will probably stop trying to answer your questions and just appeal to an overarching faith concept that gives them comfort. So far as I know, there isn't really a way to penetrate that shield.

Hopefully, the questions that you asked them (and be genuine and fair when you ask them these questions) will start a long term process for them in which they question their faith.

I became an atheist because I questioned my religious upbringing during dialogs (or debates) with non-believers. The process didn't happen overnight, but I eventually became unable to sincerely defend my belief in God, and I had no choice but to discard the belief.
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17-03-2011, 03:18 AM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2011 03:26 AM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Roman catolics...
Hello and welcome. Well you should read the section "What we believe", humans dont need a god or faith or even a book to understand morality, the bible is not entirely moral because there are many atrocities within both testaments.

You should check this website http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ in order to learn about how the bible is full of atrocities like slavery, incest, murder, genocide etc. most believers always use the "you are out of context" argument.

I understand you because my most of my family is catholic, I went to a catholic school when I was a child, on the other hand my mother is evangelical christian. In my experience, when you learn more about the bible for example you have more weapons to counter the arguments from believers because I learned a lot more of judeo-christian faith when I became an atheist, and that's because you learn the things that they conveniently dont teach you.

Peace.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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17-03-2011, 03:22 AM
RE: Roman catolics...
(17-03-2011 03:18 AM)MasterRottweiler Wrote:  You should check this website http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ in order to learn about how the bible is full of atrocities like slavery, incest, murder, genocide etc.

excellent resource!

Here is another place to find a bunch of Biblical goodies:
http://www.project-reason.org/scripture_project/
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17-03-2011, 03:28 AM
RE: Roman catolics...
Thanks, I'll check it out.

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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17-03-2011, 03:30 AM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2011 03:50 AM by MasterRottweiler.)
RE: Roman catolics...
(17-03-2011 03:22 AM)13mentaculus Wrote:  excellent resource!

Here is another place to find a bunch of Biblical goodies:
http://www.project-reason.org/scripture_project/

Thanks 13Mentaculus Your suggestion is excellent aswell, bookmarked already Big Grin.

Also I forgot to methion this one http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page here you can find a lot of good arguments countering the apologetic arguments from believers. I hope this oone is helpful as well. Peace.

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
-Diego Rivera
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17-03-2011, 04:04 AM
RE: Roman catolics...
I was raised similarly, Roman-Catholic without regular Church attendance. I didn't even do first communion, but on my mother's side of the family they are all devout RC's who also regard the Bible as a "guideline" full of parables rather than literal truth. It was when I began to learn about Greek Mythology in school, which were also parables that were taken very seriously at one time, that I realized the religion I'd been raised with was based upon equally invalid fiction. Anyone who already accepts that the Bible is not the literal truth is already a big step towards being an atheist, because the hardest part of the argument is already resolved- is the Bible the actual word of God or the word of man? If the answer is "man", it becomes a gradual process of pointing out all the logical fallacies around the God theory to make anyone begin to question the basis of their faith. Here's one to start with- if you were a loving God, how much time and effort would you devote to creating cancer cells?

The way to see by Faith, is to shut the eye of Reason. - Ben Franklin
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17-03-2011, 04:19 AM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2011 04:39 AM by Filox.)
RE: Roman catolics...
Ahh, thats the spot I was looking for. Yes, you might be right, the firs step of realizing the truth is seeing that the Bible is not literally historical. But that can also be a bad thing. Because they see the Bible as mythical stories and guidelines, you can't tell them that Adam and Eve are not real, they already know that. They have accepted the science and history as proofs, so we (the active atheists) have lost a part of the arguments, RCs know about that, and they have fussed it with their beliefs, so it's not an argument any more. They are adapting their religion to our proofs, and they combine it. So, they are actually masking everything that can be used against their religion and that makes them dangerous. Being raised as I was, I can give you fantastic arguments for every religion and convince you that R-C is THE religion, I could talk for hours with atheists and stick to "my story". Luckily, I don't believe in that story...

Smile

Quick example:
Q: Why is it normal that Lot gives 2 virgin daughters to the mob to rape them instead of let-there-be an angel gay rape?
A: Now, don't take that story so literally, it has a special meaning, you should read between the lines. Your priest would explain that better than I can. And Bible is very complexed, you can't just take something like that out of the context.

Basically, what they are saying is that they know most of that is BS, but they don't care, because they see something great and beautiful in crucifixion and dieing for our sins. And this makes it hard to crack them.

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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17-03-2011, 06:48 AM
 
RE: Roman catolics...
I was raised Roman Catholic. The one thing that sticks out to me as having the biggest effect on my distancing myself from the religion was confession.

The idea that I could commit any sin and be forgiven by reciting a few lines of verse seemed absolutely ludicrous to me. How does anyone learn from their mistakes? How is anyone dissuaded from repeating bad behavior? How does anyone accept personal responsibility for their actions and try to better themselves when no matter what they do, reciting 5 Hail Mary's or 10 Lord's Prayer relieves them and their soul of any burden of sin? It seemed to me that the Catholic Church was acting as an enabler to bad behavior.

Not only that but think of how, and I'm going to use a highly technical term here, fucking disgusting the ritual of symbolically drinking someones' blood and eating their flesh is. And I'm supposed to do that once a week?

Now you have the Pope pulling a 180 on issues such as holding the Jews responsible for Jesus' death, deciding that after all this time there is no such thing as limbo, etc. Hey Pope-a-dope, how about cutting the charade and admitting the whole thing is bullshit, eh?
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17-03-2011, 07:17 AM
 
RE: Roman catolics...
Well I was Roman Catholic for over 20 years of my life and went to mass pretty much every weekend of that 20 years plus holy days. Now it seems the heart of your question is how do you "get through" to an RC about atheism, and this I can't answer because I'm not trying to get through to anyone. The only way I would try to sell atheism to someone is if they specifically came to me in conflict asking me what me POV was. Even in the face of someone trying to convert me I would only volley back and not go for the kill. Why? Because I firmly believe that this is something you have to come to voluntaily from the inside out.

I was going to say much more, but I'm out of time for now maybe later.
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