Roman historian on Jesus
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10-08-2014, 08:26 PM
RE: Roman historian on Jesus
"This historian said this"...........Um look at the date first off, still after the fact so cannot be considered a first hand account.

Secondly, for example If I get my picture taken with Donald Trump does that mean he can fly around on a broom or shoot his own head off with a shotgun and regrow it?

The alleged "Historians" were hardly that, there is a difference between a collegiate scholastic historian and an apologist arguing for a position. Historians simply report, like a objective journalists. The after the fact outside sources of that time were looking for a hero and were sympathizers to the new movement.

But regardless even if we found the actual body and DNA of a man named Jesus, he would not be a god or a man/god, he merely would have been a man who started a new religion.

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23-01-2018, 06:48 AM
RE: Roman historian on Jesus
(25-07-2014 07:09 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(24-07-2014 07:19 PM)sophonian Wrote:  Phlegon (80-140AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it...

I was just reading something refuting this no more than ten minutes ago. What an amazing coincidence!

That being said, here is a refutation of that. It starts a few paragraphs down under the heading 1. The 10/42 Is Misleading about the Literary Sources for Jesus:


First off, Phlegon is an author who may have written in the 2nd century CE, most of whose works are lost. References to his lost works only survive in quotations of later authors, one of which is a quote from Julius Africanus (a lost 3rd century source), which itself is preserved in a second quote from the 9th century author Syncellus (that’s right, a quote of a quote seven centuries later!). After all this word of mouth Africanus claims that Phlegon wrote about the great darkness at Jesus’ execution. Phlegon’s quote, however, is preserved verbatim in Eusebius where no connection to Jesus is made, and instead Phlegon merely refers to an eclipse during Tiberius’ reign. There is another dubious quote in Origen (unrelated to the eclipse) where Phlegon supposedly wrote about Jesus, but his words are not preserved verbatim, so it is difficult to ascertain. Regardless, Phlegon cannot be used as a source for the darkness at Jesus’ execution and his quote may completely undermine Thallus as a source.

Thallus, like Phlegon, is a lost historian who only survives in later quotations and whose date is largely uncertain, but he probably wrote during the 2nd century CE. None of the later quotations of his works that include his own words mention Jesus. Instead another quote of Africanus, who does not record Thallus’ own words, claims that Thallus also wrote about the great darkness at Jesus’ execution, but once more this is only preserved by the 9th century author Syncellus. Given Africanus’ previous error, where he claimed that Phlegon wrote about Jesus, when his actual words did not, it is highly likely that Africanus misrepresented Thallus as well (there is also the possibility that Eusebius anonymously quotes Thallus in his Chronicle where no reference to Jesus is made in regard to the Tiberian eclipse). Lacking Thallus’ works or even a quotation of his own words that mentions Jesus, he cannot accurately be regarded as “an account that now exists concerning Jesus,” like Habermas and Licona claim, and thus including his name on the list is misleading.

For more information about how there is no outside corroboration of the darkness at Jesus’ execution, despite being an even that would have been documented worldwide, here is a valuable article from ancient historian Richard Carrier:


http://www.jgrchj.net/volume8/JGRChJ8-8_Carrier.pdf



First of all Matthew, Mark & Luke mentioned the darkness.... so why are we taking the opinion of someone who obviously did jack shit of research?!?
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23-01-2018, 07:04 AM
RE: Roman historian on Jesus
(25-07-2014 07:09 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(24-07-2014 07:19 PM)sophonian Wrote:  Phlegon (80-140AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions a historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it...

I was just reading something refuting this no more than ten minutes ago. What an amazing coincidence!

That being said, here is a refutation of that. It starts a few paragraphs down under the heading 1. The 10/42 Is Misleading about the Literary Sources for Jesus:


First off, Phlegon is an author who may have written in the 2nd century CE, most of whose works are lost. References to his lost works only survive in quotations of later authors, one of which is a quote from Julius Africanus (a lost 3rd century source), which itself is preserved in a second quote from the 9th century author Syncellus (that’s right, a quote of a quote seven centuries later!). After all this word of mouth Africanus claims that Phlegon wrote about the great darkness at Jesus’ execution. Phlegon’s quote, however, is preserved verbatim in Eusebius where no connection to Jesus is made, and instead Phlegon merely refers to an eclipse during Tiberius’ reign. There is another dubious quote in Origen (unrelated to the eclipse) where Phlegon supposedly wrote about Jesus, but his words are not preserved verbatim, so it is difficult to ascertain. Regardless, Phlegon cannot be used as a source for the darkness at Jesus’ execution and his quote may completely undermine Thallus as a source.

Thallus, like Phlegon, is a lost historian who only survives in later quotations and whose date is largely uncertain, but he probably wrote during the 2nd century CE. None of the later quotations of his works that include his own words mention Jesus. Instead another quote of Africanus, who does not record Thallus’ own words, claims that Thallus also wrote about the great darkness at Jesus’ execution, but once more this is only preserved by the 9th century author Syncellus. Given Africanus’ previous error, where he claimed that Phlegon wrote about Jesus, when his actual words did not, it is highly likely that Africanus misrepresented Thallus as well (there is also the possibility that Eusebius anonymously quotes Thallus in his Chronicle where no reference to Jesus is made in regard to the Tiberian eclipse). Lacking Thallus’ works or even a quotation of his own words that mentions Jesus, he cannot accurately be regarded as “an account that now exists concerning Jesus,” like Habermas and Licona claim, and thus including his name on the list is misleading.

For more information about how there is no outside corroboration of the darkness at Jesus’ execution, despite being an even that would have been documented worldwide, here is a valuable article from ancient historian Richard Carrier:


http://www.jgrchj.net/volume8/JGRChJ8-8_Carrier.pdf
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23-01-2018, 08:02 AM
RE: Roman historian on Jesus
(10-08-2014 08:26 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  "This historian said this"...........Um look at the date first off, still after the fact so cannot be considered a first hand account.

Secondly, for example If I get my picture taken with Donald Trump does that mean he can fly around on a broom or shoot his own head off with a shotgun and regrow it?

The alleged "Historians" were hardly that, there is a difference between a collegiate scholastic historian and an apologist arguing for a position. Historians simply report, like a objective journalists. The after the fact outside sources of that time were looking for a hero and were sympathizers to the new movement.

But regardless even if we found the actual body and DNA of a man named Jesus, he would not be a god or a man/god, he merely would have been a man who started a new religion.

First let me say I am a seeker of truth, I prefer to check things out for myself rather than take someone's word for it.. however there is that time in between hearing and finding out. So I am not saying this is accurate... however I cannot say it isn't ether at this time! Supposedly they have found the Ark of the Covenant and found blood on the Mercy Seat, and thus fulfilled the prophecy of Moses using hyssop to sprinkling the ark with blood and water, it was stated that at the time of the babylonian exile the ark was moved and hidden under Golgotha and during the earthquake at the time of the crucifixion the ground split and then when they pierced his side and the "blood and water flowed" it ran down this crack and the blood and the water landed on the mercy seat and when they tested this "blood" it had only 1 chromosome... Y! Now if this were true would that be proof of his deity?
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23-01-2018, 08:07 AM
RE: Roman historian on Jesus
(23-01-2018 08:02 AM)BloodMoonBorn Wrote:  First let me say I am a seeker of truth

Maybe you should seek the truth about forming and wiritng coherent thoughts and sentences.

And the answer to what looked like a question at the end, is no.

You're welcome.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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23-01-2018, 08:17 AM
RE: Roman historian on Jesus
(23-01-2018 08:02 AM)BloodMoonBorn Wrote:  
(10-08-2014 08:26 PM)Brian37 Wrote:  "This historian said this"...........Um look at the date first off, still after the fact so cannot be considered a first hand account.

Secondly, for example If I get my picture taken with Donald Trump does that mean he can fly around on a broom or shoot his own head off with a shotgun and regrow it?

The alleged "Historians" were hardly that, there is a difference between a collegiate scholastic historian and an apologist arguing for a position. Historians simply report, like a objective journalists. The after the fact outside sources of that time were looking for a hero and were sympathizers to the new movement.

But regardless even if we found the actual body and DNA of a man named Jesus, he would not be a god or a man/god, he merely would have been a man who started a new religion.

First let me say I am a seeker of truth, I prefer to check things out for myself rather than take someone's word for it.. however there is that time in between hearing and finding out. So I am not saying this is accurate... however I cannot say it isn't ether at this time! Supposedly they have found the Ark of the Covenant and found blood on the Mercy Seat, and thus fulfilled the prophecy of Moses using hyssop to sprinkling the ark with blood and water, it was stated that at the time of the babylonian exile the ark was moved and hidden under Golgotha and during the earthquake at the time of the crucifixion the ground split and then when they pierced his side and the "blood and water flowed" it ran down this crack and the blood and the water landed on the mercy seat and when they tested this "blood" it had only 1 chromosome... Y! Now if this were true would that be proof of his deity?

1. They have not found the Arc of The Covenant.
2. The entire business of "prophecy" as predication is one of the most blatant ignorant errors of modern Fundamentalism.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278
3. Actually, if you read the Bible, you will find NO such nonsense that the Arc was buried under a hill in Jerusalem. So. no. The Bible says where they put it.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ion=NRSVCE
4. The Jewish "heaven" was full of divine beings, ... NOT ONE had the status of Yahweh. No again. No divinity. It's presented DIFFERENTLY in each gospel.
5. According to the Doctrine of the Incarnation, 1 chromosome would refute "fully human and fully divine". Humans have 46 chromosomes. There is no known life form that has one chromosome ... all total bullshit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_or...some_count

"Truth seeker" ?
LMAO

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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23-01-2018, 09:01 AM
RE: Roman historian on Jesus
Ah ha.
Well thanks Nostradumbass.

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23-01-2018, 09:36 AM
RE: Roman historian on Jesus
(23-01-2018 08:17 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-01-2018 08:02 AM)BloodMoonBorn Wrote:  First let me say I am a seeker of truth, I prefer to check things out for myself rather than take someone's word for it.. however there is that time in between hearing and finding out. So I am not saying this is accurate... however I cannot say it isn't ether at this time! Supposedly they have found the Ark of the Covenant and found blood on the Mercy Seat, and thus fulfilled the prophecy of Moses using hyssop to sprinkling the ark with blood and water, it was stated that at the time of the babylonian exile the ark was moved and hidden under Golgotha and during the earthquake at the time of the crucifixion the ground split and then when they pierced his side and the "blood and water flowed" it ran down this crack and the blood and the water landed on the mercy seat and when they tested this "blood" it had only 1 chromosome... Y! Now if this were true would that be proof of his deity?

1. They have not found the Arc of The Covenant.
2. The entire business of "prophecy" as predication is one of the most blatant ignorant errors of modern Fundamentalism.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278
3. Actually, if you read the Bible, you will find NO such nonsense that the Arc was buried under a hill in Jerusalem. So. no. The Bible says where they put it.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ion=NRSVCE
4. The Jewish "heaven" was full of divine beings, ... NOT ONE had the status of Yahweh. No again. No divinity. It's presented DIFFERENTLY in each gospel.
5. According to the Doctrine of the Incarnation, 1 chromosome would refute "fully human and fully divine". Humans have 46 chromosomes. There is no known life form that has one chromosome ... all total bullshit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_or...some_count

"Truth seeker" ?
LMAO


In response to #5...
https://www.google.com/search?client=saf...5xKBMkIlbw
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23-01-2018, 09:48 AM
RE: Roman historian on Jesus
(23-01-2018 09:36 AM)BloodMoonBorn Wrote:  In response to #5...
https://www.google.com/search?client=saf...5xKBMkIlbw


Response? You are now struggling even with the meaning of basic words. Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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23-01-2018, 10:02 AM
RE: Roman historian on Jesus
(23-01-2018 09:48 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(23-01-2018 09:36 AM)BloodMoonBorn Wrote:  In response to #5...
https://www.google.com/search?client=saf...5xKBMkIlbw


Response? You are now struggling even with the meaning of basic words. Drinking Beverage


Lmfao! Did you even click the link... try it maybe you'll learn something! Like what a chromosome is and what xx & xy mean!
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