Ron Paul WINS LOUISIANA CAUCUS!!!!!!!!!
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30-04-2012, 10:39 AM
RE: Ron Paul WINS LOUISIANA CAUCUS!!!!!!!!!
(30-04-2012 10:29 AM)germanyt Wrote:  
(30-04-2012 10:25 AM)reverendjeremiah Wrote:  If he does everything he says he will there will be MASSIVE unemployment.
Prove it.
Economics isn't like climate change science. There are a lot of unpredictable human factors to consider obviously.
To demand proof is to assert your own ignorance of the subject.
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30-04-2012, 10:53 AM
RE: Ron Paul WINS LOUISIANA CAUCUS!!!!!!!!!
(30-04-2012 10:39 AM)Antirepublican Wrote:  
(30-04-2012 10:29 AM)germanyt Wrote:  Prove it.
Economics isn't like climate change science. There are a lot of unpredictable human factors to consider obviously.
To demand proof is to assert your own ignorance of the subject.

Its okay anti - I will give him the proof he requested
#1 - Me and my wife are union and most of my work is with the federal government. Ron Paul has blatantly opposed the Davis-bacon act and is clearly opposed to any unions working for the federal government. Once ron Paul is elected me and my wife will suffer horribly from lack of work.
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http://www.ronpaularchive.com/1997/10/re...bacon-law/

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#2 - He will shut down many departments, including the department of education. Shutting down these depts will cause massive unemployment. You may not think that govt jobs count as jobs, but i very much consider govt jobs to be jobs.
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Do I need to keep going...or are you just ignoring this?

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30-04-2012, 11:04 AM
RE: Ron Paul WINS LOUISIANA CAUCUS!!!!!!!!!
(30-04-2012 10:53 AM)reverendjeremiah Wrote:  
(30-04-2012 10:39 AM)Antirepublican Wrote:  Economics isn't like climate change science. There are a lot of unpredictable human factors to consider obviously.
To demand proof is to assert your own ignorance of the subject.

Its okay anti - I will give him the proof he requested
#1 - Me and my wife are union and most of my work is with the federal government. Ron Paul has blatantly opposed the Davis-bacon act and is clearly opposed to any unions working for the federal government. Once ron Paul is elected me and my wife will suffer horribly from lack of work.
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http://www.ronpaularchive.com/1997/10/re...bacon-law/

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#2 - He will shut down many departments, including the department of education. Shutting down these depts will cause massive unemployment. You may not think that govt jobs count as jobs, but i very much consider govt jobs to be jobs.
-
Do I need to keep going...or are you just ignoring this?
Did you even read the link you posted? Clearly the federal government is fiscally better off by not being forced to pay contracted $30+ dollar an hour workers. And believe it or not but there was a time when unemployment was low without millions of extra government employees. It's unfortunate that you may have less work but it's ultimately better for our economy for the government to be able to shop contractors based on affordability. How many skilled workers do you think aren't feeding their families because the government can't hire them? You seem to have no concept of what is good for the country or society. Only voting on what you think will benefit you.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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30-04-2012, 11:14 AM
RE: Ron Paul WINS LOUISIANA CAUCUS!!!!!!!!!
Sure Germany...I have no problem voting away my union contract and voting for me and my wife to have our pay cut by 60% and lose our benefits in the process...and i will do it for AMERICA!!!!! Sure Germany, what America needs is less jobs that pay less because bygolly that how you get employment back up. Sure Germany, your voting for Ron Paul has nothing to do with you probably dispising having to pay taxes, but its all blamed on me for not wanting to vote to fuck my family over...sure Germany, I will vote for Ron Paul...
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*Germany gets a stern side look from the rev*

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30-04-2012, 11:18 AM
RE: Ron Paul WINS LOUISIANA CAUCUS!!!!!!!!!
(30-04-2012 11:14 AM)reverendjeremiah Wrote:  Sure Germany...I have no problem voting away my union contract and voting for me and my wife to have our pay cut by 60% and lose our benefits in the process...and i will do it for AMERICA!!!!! Sure Germany, what America needs is less jobs that pay less because bygolly that how you get employment back up. Sure Germany, your voting for Ron Paul has nothing to do with you probably dispising having to pay taxes, but its all blamed on me for not wanting to vote to fuck my family over...sure Germany, I will vote for Ron Paul...
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*Germany gets a stern side look from the rev*
Your union would keep the work if they weren't raping the government on bids. Forced government contracts do nothing but skyrocket the cost of goods and services provided to them. Take the GSA for example. Why is the military forced to purchase toilet paper from them at a higher price than they can buy it at Costco for? Then those same idiots who supported that legislation bitch about military spending. And you know what else would happen if overturned? Those poor, useless GSA employees would be out of a job. But I hear Costco needs new people in the TP department.

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30-04-2012, 11:50 AM
RE: Ron Paul WINS LOUISIANA CAUCUS!!!!!!!!!
Quote:Your union would keep the work if they weren't raping the government on bids.


#1 - You dont know ANYTHING about my union. You just assumed shit and Im sure you will not admit it.

#2 - My union doesnt work that way. My union is nothing more than a job referal organization who I give 5% of my earnings to. That is the ONLY way my union makes income.

#3 - They are not latched on to some government tit as you try to describe it...and "raping"? Come on man...how about toning down on the drama queen bit?

Quote:Forced government contracts do nothing but skyrocket the cost of goods and services provided to them.


If that were true then non-union contractors would not be working on military bases. It is not. There are several non-union contractors on millitary bases....because unions (at least mine) do not "force" military contracts. The military is presented a congressionally approved budget, and the millitary spends it as they see fit. This does not "skyrocket" the costs of goods or services but in fact, if you were educated on this matter like I am, helps to keep the economy stable. Once the millitary budget runs out of money 9 times out of 10 the work STOPS and I have been on such jobs to see that happen. It would still happen regardless of davis bacon or not. "Why is that?" you may ask. Because it would start to work the same way it does in the private sector.

#1 - Union wages are at a set price and published publicly as per law.

#2 - all contract bids show project dates and estimated man hours to complete.

#3 - Do the math and you can easily figure out what the union contractor will bid at to handle his man hours plus around 5 to 7 % corporate profit.

#4 - Underbid the estimated union price by a few thousand dollars.

#5 - instead of paying your workers $20 an hour, you pay them $10 an hour

#6 - put the rest of the money in your pocket.

This is how it would be if we remove davis bacon from the picture. It would NOT drop the cost of millitary budgets because, as i said before, the budgets are already voted upon in congress before any contractor gets a chance to bid on anything. By removing davis bacon you would be putting the vast majority of money that would have went to middle income families into the pockets of the owners. It would unlevel the playing feild for bids and invite abuse and incompetence....I am happy to explain it to you in more detail if you wish

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30-04-2012, 12:02 PM
RE: Ron Paul WINS LOUISIANA CAUCUS!!!!!!!!!
(30-04-2012 11:50 AM)reverendjeremiah Wrote:  
Quote:Your union would keep the work if they weren't raping the government on bids.



#1 - You dont know ANYTHING about my union. You just assumed shit and Im sure you will not admit it.

#2 - My union doesnt work that way. My union is nothing more than a job referal organization who I give 5% of my earnings to. That is the ONLY way my union makes income.

#3 - They are not latched on to some government tit as you try to describe it...and "raping"? Come on man...how about toning down on the drama queen bit?


Quote:
Forced government contracts do nothing but skyrocket the cost of goods and services provided to them.



If that were true then non-union contractors would not be working on military bases. It is not. There are several non-union contractors on millitary bases....because unions (at least mine) do not "force" military contracts. The military is presented a congressionally approved budget, and the millitary spends it as they see fit. This does not "skyrocket" the costs of goods or services but in fact, if you were educated on this matter like I am, helps to keep the economy stable. Once the millitary budget runs out of money 9 times out of 10 the work STOPS and I have been on such jobs to see that happen. It would still happen regardless of davis bacon or not. "Why is that?" you may ask. Because it would start to work the same way it does in the private sector.

#1 - Union wages are at a set price and published publicly as per law.

#2 - all contract bids show project dates and estimated man hours to complete.

#3 - Do the math and you can easily figure out what the union contractor will bid at to handle his man hours plus around 5 to 7 % corporate profit.

#4 - Underbid the estimated union price by a few thousand dollars.

#5 - instead of paying your workers $20 an hour, you pay them $10 an hour

#6 - put the rest of the money in your pocket.

This is how it would be if we remove davis bacon from the picture. It would NOT drop the cost of millitary budgets because, as i said before, the budgets are already voted upon in congress before any contractor gets a chance to bid on anything. By removing davis bacon you would be putting the vast majority of money that would have went to middle income families into the pockets of the owners. It would unlevel the playing feild for bids and invite abuse and incompetence....I am happy to explain it to you in more detail if you wish
I was making a comparison by showing what happens when the government is forced to buy labor from certain companies. Those companies raise their prices. That is a fact. And I don't agree with your assumption that money that would have gone to middle income familes will end up in the owners pockets. I remember when a guy I knew, Gary Bishop, got a 1 million dollar contract from a general contractor to do some work for LSU. He took the bid and doubled his workforce. Sure, lots of those were $10 workers but you can't think that everyone is qualified to make what the skilled guys make.

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30-04-2012, 12:15 PM
RE: Ron Paul WINS LOUISIANA CAUCUS!!!!!!!!!
Quote:I was making a comparison by showing what happens when the government is forced to buy labor from certain companies. Those companies raise their prices. That is a fact. And I don't agree with your assumption that money that would have gone to middle income familes will end up in the owners pockets. I remember when a guy I knew, Gary Bishop, got a 1 million dollar contract from a general contractor to do some work for LSU. He took the bid and doubled his workforce. Sure, lots of those were $10 workers but you can't think that everyone is qualified to make what the skilled guys make.
I expected that scenereo to be brought up. Of course good people will be involved in the contracting process. Sure, he isnt really paying them shit, but he has employed alot of workers instead of pocketing most of his money. He more than likely did a good job by having plenty of workers under him instead of trying to squeeze water out of a rock like most non-union contractors do.
...NOW...
Here is the difference, and you also bring up the difference albeit in a way that tells me what I can and cant think: Skill level. Because of Davis bacon, skill levels MUST be posted and cleared through the military. If you go back to the Ron Paul link on davis bacon you will see where he speaks of contractors boosting their workers up to a skill level that they do not deserve. Well Germany, that is what happens when you have non-union outfits bidding on millitary contracts. these non-union contractors must lie about many of their workers in order to meet the skill requirements of the govt. The unions, on the other hand, have state and federal acredited qualification tests and certifications (in fact I am an examiner that deals strictly with this in my union). They are tested, and if they do not reach the level of journeyman then they are sent back to remedial education. Some millitary contracts require high skill levels. So in some cases if a worker does not pass my test, then they cannot work on that base. By hiring union, the millitary is guarenteed a competent and skilled workforce. On the other hand, many non-union companies couldnt care less about skill level and definitely do not keep good records on their workers. Many times I have come across a non-union worker on a millitary job who was lying about his skill level, yet was classified as a journeyman by their company.
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To put it simply, the cost is the same but the quality of union work for millitary ad federal budgets are much higher and have a better certification proof paper trail.

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30-04-2012, 02:26 PM
RE: Ron Paul WINS LOUISIANA CAUCUS!!!!!!!!!
Paul hasn't made a secret of his alternative strategy of individual delegate support.
Also Romney has NO chance of winning the 18-35 in the general election. Ron Paul however has a giant internet following and might be able to dent Obama.

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30-04-2012, 02:31 PM (This post was last modified: 30-04-2012 02:40 PM by germanyt.)
RE: Ron Paul WINS LOUISIANA CAUCUS!!!!!!!!!
(30-04-2012 02:26 PM)Caveman Wrote:  Paul hasn't made a secret of his alternative strategy of individual delegate support.
Also Romney has NO chance of winning the 18-35 in the general election. Ron Paul however has a giant internet following and might be able to dent Obama.
Ron Paul could handily beat Obama. Republicans are going vote for him no matter what. He polls higher among Independents and has a fair amount of Dem support from those dissatisfied with Obama. All Romney has is unenthusiastic Rep support and a statistical tie among Independents. And almost zero Dem support.
(30-04-2012 12:15 PM)reverendjeremiah Wrote:  
Quote:I was making a comparison by showing what happens when the government is forced to buy labor from certain companies. Those companies raise their prices. That is a fact. And I don't agree with your assumption that money that would have gone to middle income familes will end up in the owners pockets. I remember when a guy I knew, Gary Bishop, got a 1 million dollar contract from a general contractor to do some work for LSU. He took the bid and doubled his workforce. Sure, lots of those were $10 workers but you can't think that everyone is qualified to make what the skilled guys make.
I expected that scenereo to be brought up. Of course good people will be involved in the contracting process. Sure, he isnt really paying them shit, but he has employed alot of workers instead of pocketing most of his money. He more than likely did a good job by having plenty of workers under him instead of trying to squeeze water out of a rock like most non-union contractors do.
...NOW...
Here is the difference, and you also bring up the difference albeit in a way that tells me what I can and cant think: Skill level. Because of Davis bacon, skill levels MUST be posted and cleared through the military. If you go back to the Ron Paul link on davis bacon you will see where he speaks of contractors boosting their workers up to a skill level that they do not deserve. Well Germany, that is what happens when you have non-union outfits bidding on millitary contracts. these non-union contractors must lie about many of their workers in order to meet the skill requirements of the govt. The unions, on the other hand, have state and federal acredited qualification tests and certifications (in fact I am an examiner that deals strictly with this in my union). They are tested, and if they do not reach the level of journeyman then they are sent back to remedial education. Some millitary contracts require high skill levels. So in some cases if a worker does not pass my test, then they cannot work on that base. By hiring union, the millitary is guarenteed a competent and skilled workforce. On the other hand, many non-union companies couldnt care less about skill level and definitely do not keep good records on their workers. Many times I have come across a non-union worker on a millitary job who was lying about his skill level, yet was classified as a journeyman by their company.
-
To put it simply, the cost is the same but the quality of union work for millitary ad federal budgets are much higher and have a better certification proof paper trail.
I think publicly disclosing information about workers like unions do is a great business practice. I agree that you a likely to get better quality work through union labor. What I don't like is that in a lot of cases there isn't even a choice. I can't cite specific examples but perhaps you could verify. If a government building like the DMV for example needs a new row of fully enclosed cubicles, who does that work? Who decides who gets hired and how much they will pay? I have to assume that the person planning this project, having a large enough budget to not worry about price, calls up the first union contractor on the list and says "Let's get started". There is no incentive to save money and not really a cheaper option even if they did care about the money. It's like being forced to get your Malibu oil changed at the Mercedes dealer. Am I off base? Or should governments have not only the option, but be required to seek out inexpensive labor for small, non-precision projects? I realize there are a lot of union workers depending on that job but there are also a lot of taxpayers that would rather not pay $30/hour for a few sheets of drywall and a few electrical outlets to be built. Am I overestimating the wages or incorrect about whether non union workers can be hired?

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

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