Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
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07-10-2013, 04:12 AM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(06-10-2013 04:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(04-10-2013 07:11 PM)excubitor Wrote:  The spectacular miracle at Fatima is recorded history. Tens of thousands of witnesses and even skeptics testified to the Miracle of the Sun.
It wasn't much of a miracle actually. Drinking Beverage
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4110

You know, I always find it interesting when people believe in this type of thing. What would be the point of God showing us a "miracle" of this sort? I would assume most believers see it as some kind of proof or evidence that he exists. But really? This is the best an omnipotent god could do? A dancing sun? It seems to me that, if he really wanted to provide proof, we would all have no doubt after he finished. Or, if this wasn't supposed to be proof, then what?
The linked website is a pitiful downplaying of the accounts of a stupendous miracle. You make them out like as if they are fools. Many of these were professional men, professors, even disbelievers and a particularly noxious subset of disbeliever, newspaper reporters.

Here are their accounts
"As if like a bolt from the blue, the clouds were wrenched apart, and the sun at its zenith appeared in all its splendour. It began to revolve vertiginously on its axis, like the most magnificent fire-wheel that could be imagined, taking on all the colours of the rainbow and sending forth multi-coloured flashes of light, producing the most astounding effect. This sublime and incomparable spectacle, which was repeated three distinct times, lasted for about ten minutes"
-Dr. Formigao, Professor

"I feel incapable of describing what I saw, I looked fixedly at the sun, which seemed pale and did not hurt my eyes. Looking like a ball of snow, revolving on itself, it suddenly seemed to come down in a zig-zag, menacing the earth" -Joaquim Lourenço, young boy

"The sun's disc did not remain immobile. This was not the sparkling of a heavenly body, for it spun round on itself in a mad whirl, when suddenly a clamour was heard from all the people. The sun, whirling, seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was terrible."
-Dr. Garrett, Professor

"To my surprise, I see clearly and distinctly a globe of light advancing from east to west, gliding slowly and majestically through the air....My friend, full of enthusiasm, went from group to group... asking people what they had seen. The persons asked came from the most varied social classes and all unanimously affirmed the reality of the phenomena which we ourselves had observed"
-Mgr. J. Quaresma

"I saw the sun spinning round and it seemed about to come down on us. It revolved like a bicycle wheel. Afterwards, it returned to its place" -John Carreira, young boy

"I saw the sun as if it were a ball of fire, begin to move in the clouds. It had been raining all morning and the sky was full of clouds, but the rain had stopped." -Carlos Mendes, Lawyer

"I looked at the sun and saw it spinning like a disc, rolling on itself. I saw people changing colour. They were stained with the colours of the rainbow. The sun seemed to fall down from the sky"
-Antonio de Oliveiro, Farmer

"I was watching sheep, as was my daily task, and suddenly, there in the direction of Fátima, I saw the sun fall from the sky." -Abano Barros, building contractor

"The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceeding fast and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat."
― Dr. Domingos Pinto Coelho, Lawyer

Suddenly the rain stopped and a great splendour appeared and the children cried: 'Look at the sun!' I saw the sun coming down, feeling that it was falling to the ground."
-Maria Candida da Silva, ordinary woman

"I looked and saw that the people were in various colours -- yellow, white, blue. At the same time, I beheld the sun spinning at great speed and very near me. I at once thought: I am going to die.”
-Joao Menitra, Reverend

"The sun started to roll from one place to another and changed to blue, yellow -- all colours....And then we see the sun come right into the trees.” -Dominic Reis, ordinary man

"It came down as if to the height of the clouds and began to whirl giddily upon itself like a captive ball of fire.” -Fr. Pereira da Silva

"I saw the sun turn upon itself; it seemed to fall from the sky" -Maria dos Prazeres, widow

"The sun at its zenith whirled upon itself; it detached itself in descending towards the right, all the while whirling with sudden movements never seen before, to the right and the left; having almost arrived at the horizon line, it went back up to the zenith on the left, tracing a sort of winding ellipse as it went.”
-Baron de Alvaiazere

"At a certain moment, the sun seemed to stop and then begun to move and dance.”
-Ti Marto, ordinary man

"However, the sun stops, only to begin the strange dance again after a brief interruption, whirling upon itself, giving the impression of approaching or receding.” -Dr. Pereira Gens of Batalha

"it (the sun) spun like a firewheel,” -Maria do Carmo Marques da Cruz Menezes, ordinary woman

"What did I see at Fatima that was even stranger? The rain, at an hour announced in advance, ceased falling; the thick mass of clouds dissolved; and the sun – a dull, silver disc – came into view at its zenith, and began to dance in a violent and convulsive movement, which a great number of witnesses compared to a serpentine dance, because the colors taken on by the surface of the sun were so beautiful and gleaming.” -Avelino de Almedia, anti-clerical journalist

"I saw the rain cease, suddenly, not as rain usually ends. Then the clouds were pushed back from the sun in every direction, as if by invisible hands, and the sun appeared, in color like the blade of a knife, luminous but not dazzling. Then as I looked, the sun described a swift circle, paused; described another, paused; described yet a third. And then the clouds began to seep over it again."
-Mabel Norton, Englishwoman

Yet people outside this area did not see the sun do anything differently to normal. So how could God make the sun move for those people and not for the rest of the world. Or maybe the miracle was a group supernatural vision of the sun which overlaid what they would otherwise see with their physical eyes.

I say in answer. Is anything too great for God? and again; Whose to say one miracle is greater than another. Jesus indicated to the paralytic that the power given to men to forgive sins was as great a miracle as the miracle of healing a man who could not walk all his life.
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07-10-2013, 04:50 AM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(07-10-2013 03:05 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Gravity is by definition the opposite of a miracle. It's the ordinary behaviour of the laws of physics, not some exception to those laws. What else is a miracle? Electronics? High speed communication? Healthy babies? Stillbirths?

If you're going to talk about miracles you need to start thinking clearly about what you mean by the term.
Gravity itself defies the laws of thermodynamics. Here is this endless energy which causes objects to fall inexorably towards the earth. It does not matter whether it is an enormous object or a light object they both fall at the same speed. Unlike any energy known to man, gravity cannot be shielded in any way. It cannot be increased or decreased. It never tires. Objects keep falling 9.8 m/s2 no less no more for hundreds and thousands of years . Where does all this incredible energy come from? The laws of Thermodynamics say that energy must be transformed. It cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore if gravity is a natural force then where is the energy from which it is transformed? Why is that energy never depleted? The earth is like a perpetual motion machine. Gravity therefore has all the hallmarks of a supernatural force caused directly by God. It is a daily miracle which occurs right under our nose every day.

The fact is, that scientists have no clue how gravity is generated. None at all. They think that because they can measure gravity and come up with a formula that describes it that therefore they understand it. But the truth is they know NOTHING about it. They have NO EVIDENCE that the mass of an object causes an object to fall towards it.

Now what if the entire truth of the matter is that gravity is not a physical force at all, but is a supernatural force that causes objects to fall to the earth at 9.8 m/s2. How will science ever come to this knowledge? It never will, because it cannot, because the central tenet of science is that nothing exists which does not have a natural cause. The basic tenet of science is that nothing supernatural or paranormal exists. So if indeed the truth is that miracles and supernatural events explain much of what we see, including creation, gravity, the motion of the planets and stars and the moon, the birth of a human child, and any number of other wonders, SCIENCE WILL NEVER discover it.

The result is that when science is faced with stupendous observations which defy the intellect, they have no recourse to a supernatural God, and so must resort to the most outlandish and absurd theories that make a mockery of all common sense.

The latest theory from Dawkins when faced with the Anthropic principle is the universe in which we are is only one of billions of universes a bubble foam of universes and we are just in one bubble and all the different bubbles in the foam have different fundamental constants and different laws and the vast majority of the bubbles have their knobs tuned into different places and do not give rise to the conditions which make evolution possible. There is only a tiny minority of these universes in which the conditions make evolution possible.

Can you believe this stuff? You think I am lying about this don't you, to discredit Dawkins. Hardly. Certainly not.

I typed this out from a video of him and then got sick of typing but he is talking about universes giving birth to baby universes and a darwinian tree of evolving universes so that in the billions upon billions of universes there should be no surprise that one of the babies of the billions of baby universes has the astronomically impossible odds of being anthropic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CexcmggApr4

You must be kidding. You reckon I believe in a fairy tale. This takes fairy tales to the utter extreme of absurdity.

But that is what science does to those who refuse to acknowledge the supernatural power of God in the creation. They get forced bit by bit into the most ludicrous theories which are so bizarre as to totally defy the imaginations that any "educated" person could be convinced to give enough credibility to repeat the fanciful nonsense.

Well Mr. Dawkins. You and your followers are forever blowing bubbles. Your theories will disappear like the foam on the sea shore which evaporates in the heat of the early morning sun. Poor deluded people. Pitiful and pathetic.
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07-10-2013, 05:23 AM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(07-10-2013 03:05 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Gravity is by definition the opposite of a miracle. It's the ordinary behaviour of the laws of physics, not some exception to those laws. What else is a miracle? Electronics? High speed communication? Healthy babies? Stillbirths?

If you're going to talk about miracles you need to start thinking clearly about what you mean by the term.
Gravity itself defies the laws of thermodynamics. Here is this endless energy which causes objects to fall inexorably towards the earth. It does not matter whether it is an enormous object or a light object they both fall at the same speed. Unlike any energy known to man, gravity cannot be shielded in any way. It cannot be increased or decreased. It never tires. Objects keep falling 9.8 m/s2 no less no more for hundreds and thousands of years . Where does all this incredible energy come from? The laws of Thermodynamics say that energy must be transformed. It cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore if gravity is a natural force then where is the energy from which it is transformed? Why is that energy never depleted? The earth is like a perpetual motion machine. Gravity therefore has all the hallmarks of a supernatural force caused directly by God. It is a daily miracle which occurs right under our nose every day.

The fact is, that scientists have no clue how gravity is generated. None at all. They think that because they can measure gravity and come up with a formula that describes it that therefore they understand it. But the truth is they know NOTHING about it. They have NO EVIDENCE that the mass of an object causes an object to fall towards it.

Now what if the entire truth of the matter is that gravity is not a physical force at all, but is a supernatural force that causes objects to fall to the earth at 9.8 m/s2. How will science ever come to this knowledge? It never will, because it cannot, because the central tenet of science is that nothing exists which does not have a natural cause. The basic tenet of science is that nothing supernatural or paranormal exists. So if indeed the truth is that miracles and supernatural events explain much of what we see, including creation, gravity, the motion of the planets and stars and the moon, the birth of a human child, and any number of other wonders, SCIENCE WILL NEVER discover it.

The result is that when science is faced with stupendous observations which defy the intellect, they have no recourse to a supernatural God, and so must resort to the most outlandish and absurd theories that make a mockery of all common sense.

The latest theory from Dawkins when faced with the Anthropic principle is the universe in which we are is only one of billions of universes a bubble foam of universes and we are just in one bubble and all the different bubbles in the foam have different fundamental constants and different laws and the vast majority of the bubbles have their knobs tuned into different places and do not give rise to the conditions which make evolution possible. There is only a tiny minority of these universes in which the conditions make evolution possible.

Can you believe this stuff? You think I am lying about this don't you, to discredit Dawkins. Hardly. Certainly not.

I typed this out from a video of him and then got sick of typing but he is talking about universes giving birth to baby universes and a darwinian tree of evolving universes so that in the billions upon billions of universes there should be no surprise that one of the babies of the billions of baby universes has the astronomically impossible odds of being anthropic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CexcmggApr4

You must be kidding. You reckon I believe in a fairy tale. This takes fairy tales to the utter extreme of absurdity.

But that is what science does to those who refuse to acknowledge the supernatural power of God in the creation. They get forced bit by bit into the most ludicrous theories which are so bizarre as to totally defy the imaginations that any "educated" person could be convinced to give enough credibility to repeat the fanciful nonsense.

Well Mr. Dawkins. You and your followers are forever blowing bubbles. Your theories will disappear like the foam on the sea shore which evaporates in the heat of the early morning sun. Poor deluded people. Pitiful and pathetic.

Gravity is explained quite nicely as a curvature of space caused by mass. You are a century out of date with your understanding of it.

And Dr. Dawkins is explaining what some physicists make of the anthropic principle.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-10-2013, 05:29 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2013 05:54 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
"This takes fairy tales to the utter extreme of absurdity."
Kinda like his popey and Jebus.

Thanks for our daily dose of humor.
(Look who's talkin' "humility"). Tongue

Fatima : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria

Gravity : (OMF'n G "Gravity defies thermodynamics" Weeping ... slowly backing away )
Actually there are some recent theories that gravity results from thermodynamics.
As usual, shit out of his ass, and no references.
The poopy-head is strong in this one.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-10-2013, 09:58 AM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(07-10-2013 02:06 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(06-10-2013 04:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  It wasn't much of a miracle actually. Drinking Beverage
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4110

You know, I always find it interesting when people believe in this type of thing. What would be the point of God showing us a "miracle" of this sort? I would assume most believers see it as some kind of proof or evidence that he exists. But really? This is the best an omnipotent god could do? A dancing sun? It seems to me that, if he really wanted to provide proof, we would all have no doubt after he finished. Or, if this wasn't supposed to be proof, then what?
Even if you saw with your own eyes the Red sea part and the Israelites pass through the gap and the waters close over the Egyptians and the chariots you would still not believe. You would say to God "Is that the best you can do? Is that supposed to be proof".

This is the hardness of heart of the Israelites who even though they witnessed his miracles refused to believe his promises and refused to trust him in faith. Mere belief forced upon you as irrefutable proof is not enough. It is the softness and humility of heart that comes by belief through faith which pleases God.

Every day we see miracles. Gravity is a perpetual miracle which has all the hallmarks of a supernatural force and yet you do not believe. The fact that the universe can spin around us in 24 hours is a perpetual miracle. For those who believe in a rotating earth, this too if it were true could only occur through a perpetual miracle. Miracles are our daily fare. The miracle of new life through the birth of a baby. The miracle of music, art, happiness and love. All miracles of the creation which demand a creator.

Miracles which you too have denied because of the hardness of your disbelieving heart.
Why does your god play such games? Or, moreover, why do you believe in such nonsense? Parting waters? Locust swarms? Murdering of first borns? Dancing suns? These are nothing but the contrivances of humans with small imaginations. Why doesn't your god just stand before us in plain sight and say "here I am"? Surely, if you are right, the mere sight of such a being would be undeniable to anyone, including me! Belief through faith? ... WHY? It makes no sense at all that faith would be a requirement or even desired by an all loving being, especially with such consequences for a lack thereof as eternity in hell...!!!

As for your "miracles" - gravity, earth's rotation, birth, etc. - I call them by a different name. They are the laws of nature and of the universe. Drinking Beverage

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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07-10-2013, 10:22 AM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(07-10-2013 04:12 AM)excubitor Wrote:  
(06-10-2013 04:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  It wasn't much of a miracle actually. Drinking Beverage
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4110

You know, I always find it interesting when people believe in this type of thing. What would be the point of God showing us a "miracle" of this sort? I would assume most believers see it as some kind of proof or evidence that he exists. But really? This is the best an omnipotent god could do? A dancing sun? It seems to me that, if he really wanted to provide proof, we would all have no doubt after he finished. Or, if this wasn't supposed to be proof, then what?
The linked website is a pitiful downplaying of the accounts of a stupendous miracle. You make them out like as if they are fools. Many of these were professional men, professors, even disbelievers and a particularly noxious subset of disbeliever, newspaper reporters.

Here are their accounts
"As if like a bolt from the blue, the clouds were wrenched apart, and the sun at its zenith appeared in all its splendour. It began to revolve vertiginously on its axis, like the most magnificent fire-wheel that could be imagined, taking on all the colours of the rainbow and sending forth multi-coloured flashes of light, producing the most astounding effect. This sublime and incomparable spectacle, which was repeated three distinct times, lasted for about ten minutes"
-Dr. Formigao, Professor

"I feel incapable of describing what I saw, I looked fixedly at the sun, which seemed pale and did not hurt my eyes. Looking like a ball of snow, revolving on itself, it suddenly seemed to come down in a zig-zag, menacing the earth" -Joaquim Lourenço, young boy

"The sun's disc did not remain immobile. This was not the sparkling of a heavenly body, for it spun round on itself in a mad whirl, when suddenly a clamour was heard from all the people. The sun, whirling, seemed to loosen itself from the firmament and advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was terrible."
-Dr. Garrett, Professor

"To my surprise, I see clearly and distinctly a globe of light advancing from east to west, gliding slowly and majestically through the air....My friend, full of enthusiasm, went from group to group... asking people what they had seen. The persons asked came from the most varied social classes and all unanimously affirmed the reality of the phenomena which we ourselves had observed"
-Mgr. J. Quaresma

"I saw the sun spinning round and it seemed about to come down on us. It revolved like a bicycle wheel. Afterwards, it returned to its place" -John Carreira, young boy

"I saw the sun as if it were a ball of fire, begin to move in the clouds. It had been raining all morning and the sky was full of clouds, but the rain had stopped." -Carlos Mendes, Lawyer

"I looked at the sun and saw it spinning like a disc, rolling on itself. I saw people changing colour. They were stained with the colours of the rainbow. The sun seemed to fall down from the sky"
-Antonio de Oliveiro, Farmer

"I was watching sheep, as was my daily task, and suddenly, there in the direction of Fátima, I saw the sun fall from the sky." -Abano Barros, building contractor

"The sun, at one moment surrounded with scarlet flame, at another aureoled in yellow and deep purple, seemed to be in an exceeding fast and whirling movement, at times appearing to be loosened from the sky and to be approaching the earth, strongly radiating heat."
― Dr. Domingos Pinto Coelho, Lawyer

Suddenly the rain stopped and a great splendour appeared and the children cried: 'Look at the sun!' I saw the sun coming down, feeling that it was falling to the ground."
-Maria Candida da Silva, ordinary woman

"I looked and saw that the people were in various colours -- yellow, white, blue. At the same time, I beheld the sun spinning at great speed and very near me. I at once thought: I am going to die.”
-Joao Menitra, Reverend

"The sun started to roll from one place to another and changed to blue, yellow -- all colours....And then we see the sun come right into the trees.” -Dominic Reis, ordinary man

"It came down as if to the height of the clouds and began to whirl giddily upon itself like a captive ball of fire.” -Fr. Pereira da Silva

"I saw the sun turn upon itself; it seemed to fall from the sky" -Maria dos Prazeres, widow

"The sun at its zenith whirled upon itself; it detached itself in descending towards the right, all the while whirling with sudden movements never seen before, to the right and the left; having almost arrived at the horizon line, it went back up to the zenith on the left, tracing a sort of winding ellipse as it went.”
-Baron de Alvaiazere

"At a certain moment, the sun seemed to stop and then begun to move and dance.”
-Ti Marto, ordinary man

"However, the sun stops, only to begin the strange dance again after a brief interruption, whirling upon itself, giving the impression of approaching or receding.” -Dr. Pereira Gens of Batalha

"it (the sun) spun like a firewheel,” -Maria do Carmo Marques da Cruz Menezes, ordinary woman

"What did I see at Fatima that was even stranger? The rain, at an hour announced in advance, ceased falling; the thick mass of clouds dissolved; and the sun – a dull, silver disc – came into view at its zenith, and began to dance in a violent and convulsive movement, which a great number of witnesses compared to a serpentine dance, because the colors taken on by the surface of the sun were so beautiful and gleaming.” -Avelino de Almedia, anti-clerical journalist

"I saw the rain cease, suddenly, not as rain usually ends. Then the clouds were pushed back from the sun in every direction, as if by invisible hands, and the sun appeared, in color like the blade of a knife, luminous but not dazzling. Then as I looked, the sun described a swift circle, paused; described another, paused; described yet a third. And then the clouds began to seep over it again."
-Mabel Norton, Englishwoman

Yet people outside this area did not see the sun do anything differently to normal. So how could God make the sun move for those people and not for the rest of the world. Or maybe the miracle was a group supernatural vision of the sun which overlaid what they would otherwise see with their physical eyes.

I say in answer. Is anything too great for God? and again; Whose to say one miracle is greater than another. Jesus indicated to the paralytic that the power given to men to forgive sins was as great a miracle as the miracle of healing a man who could not walk all his life.
Being professional, professors, disbelievers, or anything else doesn't make anyone immune from believing in silly things. Even disbelievers were likely staring at the sky waiting to see nothing and ready to say "I told you so". But they too would have experienced the same side effect of staring at the sun too long. With the mass hysteria that ensued mostly from the faithful seeing something they did not understand while expecting or at least hopeful about seeing a miracle, even some disbelievers, having the same non-understanding about the physiological explanation, could get swept up with the rest into believing it was a sign from God.

But the accounts of what they saw differ widely. Some saw the sun spin around its center. Others saw it "dance". Others saw it hurl toward earth. The accounts that you listed show the same thing. I see this as evidence against a miracle, not evidence for. The different sights are exactly what I would expect from the side effect of staring at the sun. It's not what I would expect from a miracle that god wanted everyone in attendance to see. And, by they way, not everyone in attendance saw something out of the ordinary that day. As for the claim that the rain ceased suddenly, few people reported that. Some even denied that it occurred.

The fact that people outside the area saw nothing is not evidence of a god-isolated miracle, but evidence that nothing happened. You see, the people outside the area were not staring at the sun so not seeing anything is exactly what would be expected. And not one astronomer saw anything - you know, the people who would be most credible about such an occurrence.

A real god would not need miracles to prove his existence. Miracles are the stuff of fairy tales, magic, and wishful thinking.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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07-10-2013, 10:44 AM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Gravity itself defies the laws of thermodynamics.

Nope.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Here is this endless energy which causes objects to fall inexorably towards the earth.

Well, you know. Except for the part where it's not endless.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  It does not matter whether it is an enormous object or a light object they both fall at the same speed.

No, the both experience the same acceleration due to gravity.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Unlike any energy known to man, gravity cannot be shielded in any way. It cannot be increased or decreased. It never tires.

The universe is invariant. IT'S A MIRACLE!

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Objects keep falling 9.8 m/s2 no less no more for hundreds and thousands of years. Where does all this incredible energy come from?

Curvature of space-time.

(9.8 is only the mean gravitational constant from the Earth's surface; we have had some occasion to test gravity on other bodies)

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The laws of Thermodynamics say that energy must be transformed. It cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore if gravity is a natural force then where is the energy from which it is transformed?

Other forms of energy. Shocking, I know.

You don't seem to be aware of how this works, so I shall explain it to you. Imagine, if you will, an object 100 metres in the air. It has a certain amount of gravitational potential energy. I am holding it up. I drop it. As it falls it gains kinetic energy and loses gravitational potential energy. (some small amount is also lost to thermal energy due to air resistance). Eventually it'll hit the ground, at which point almost all of the kinetic energy is transferred to heat and deformation.

It remains possessed of a certain amount of gravitational energy nonetheless, given that it is still separated from the Earth's centre of gravity by approximately one radius.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Why is that energy never depleted?

It is. It changes form as physical interaction occurs. Attractive objects close together have less attractive potential energy than attractive objects far apart. This is high-school level stuff, chum.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The earth is like a perpetual motion machine.

Nope.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Gravity therefore has all the hallmarks of a supernatural force caused directly by God. It is a daily miracle which occurs right under our nose every day.

So the part where you claim to have 'studied' anything is evidently pure fabrication, I see.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The fact is, that scientists have no clue how gravity is generated. None at all. They think that because they can measure gravity and come up with a formula that describes it that therefore they understand it. But the truth is they know NOTHING about it. They have NO EVIDENCE that the mass of an object causes an object to fall towards it.

Except, y'know, all observation. Newtonian gravity is purely descriptive. Relativistic gravity is a mix - it posits a mechanism without entirely explaining the mechanism.

This is about the most laughably strident "I don't know THEREFORE GOD" I've seen in a while, I'll give you that.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Now what if the entire truth of the matter is that gravity is not a physical force at all, but is a supernatural force that causes objects to fall to the earth at 9.8 m/s2. How will science ever come to this knowledge? It never will, because it cannot, because the central tenet of science is that nothing exists which does not have a natural cause. The basic tenet of science is that nothing supernatural or paranormal exists. So if indeed the truth is that miracles and supernatural events explain much of what we see, including creation, gravity, the motion of the planets and stars and the moon, the birth of a human child, and any number of other wonders, SCIENCE WILL NEVER discover it.

Good. Now think a little bit harder. The next step really is a baby step. I know you can do it.

If "supernatural intervention" is what causes the observable universe, then it must be entirely consistent, entirely predictable, and entirely knowable. Because that is what we observe.

The difference, then, between a naturalistic cause which is absolutely constant and consistent, and a supernatural cause which is, er, absolutely constant and consistent is... what, precisely?

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The result is that when science is faced with stupendous observations which defy the intellect, they have no recourse to a supernatural God, and so must resort to the most outlandish and absurd theories that make a mockery of all common sense.

Let's reiterate. It is abundantly clear that you have no idea what you're talking about.

What is the difference between an utterly consistent, predictable, and knowable observable universe arising from purely naturalistic means, and an utterly consistent, predictable, and knowable universe arising from supernatural means?

The consistent, predictable, and knowable part is not up for dispute.

Sane and reasonable religious folks tend to see it as part of their work to be discovering the means and methods of said supernatural influence, a position that is eminently respectable. Refusing to use the senses, reason, and intellect endowed us by God; there's a well-known scientist who called out the Church on those very grounds, once upon a time.

But you're not particularly keen on that dangerous thinking. You'd've been the one screaming for a pyre, wouldn't you?

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  The latest theory from Dawkins when faced with the Anthropic principle is the universe in which we are is only one of billions of universes a bubble foam of universes and we are just in one bubble and all the different bubbles in the foam have different fundamental constants and different laws and the vast majority of the bubbles have their knobs tuned into different places and do not give rise to the conditions which make evolution possible. There is only a tiny minority of these universes in which the conditions make evolution possible.

That is a morass of misrepresentation and ignorance, but then, that's par for the course. The "anthropic principle" is nonsense.

If the universe were different, or in another universe - well, shucks, something else would exist. Not us. But something. Do you know the nature of that something?

No.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Can you believe this stuff? You think I am lying about this don't you, to discredit Dawkins. Hardly. Certainly not.

I believe that that's your (shallow, incorrect) understanding, yes. I believe this because I also believe you're one pitiably ignorant dunce.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I typed this out from a video of him and then got sick of typing but he is talking about universes giving birth to baby universes and a darwinian tree of evolving universes so that in the billions upon billions of universes there should be no surprise that one of the babies of the billions of baby universes has the astronomically impossible odds of being anthropic.

There you go saying 'anthropic' again. You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  You must be kidding. You reckon I believe in a fairy tale. This takes fairy tales to the utter extreme of absurdity.

No, yours is better. Trust me, I've read it.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  But that is what science does to those who refuse to acknowledge the supernatural power of God in the creation. They get forced bit by bit into the most ludicrous theories which are so bizarre as to totally defy the imaginations that any "educated" person could be convinced to give enough credibility to repeat the fanciful nonsense.

The conclusions reached by observation and reason as to the external qualities of the universe are equally as valid, regardless of their origin. Cosmogeny can be attributed to a deistic god, if you like; so much is almost reasonable.

"It's silly, therefore it's not true". As far as arguments from incredulity go, you get an A+.

(07-10-2013 04:50 AM)excubitor Wrote:  Well Mr. Dawkins. You and your followers are forever blowing bubbles. Your theories will disappear like the foam on the sea shore which evaporates in the heat of the early morning sun. Poor deluded people. Pitiful and pathetic.

The projection is strong with this one.

(but fair enough, I suppose; I know I'd be pretty terrified too if I could see my bronze-age phantasm crumbling under its own weight of contradictions, immorality, hypocrisy, corruption, and demonstrable falsehoods)

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07-10-2013, 11:54 AM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
Quote:Unlike any energy known to man, gravity cannot be shielded in any way. It cannot be increased or decreased. It never tires.

Gravitational potential energy CAN be increased or decreased. It's actually a rather interesting potential energy curve. And like others have said, 9.8 is not the exact measurement, it's only applicable at sea level. If you are higher up the acceleration is less. If you drop a quarter from chest height while standing on the top of mount Everest it will fall slower than if you did the same thing while in Bourbon Street in New Orleans. Isn't it awesome? There's also the trade off between velocity and potential energy, and mass and potential energy, and distance from center of mass and gravitational potential energy. It really is REALLY cool, but it would take a while and I have no talent for teaching.

As to Fatima, a few weeks ago we were discussing the sun and the temperature and energy given off by them (we were on the topic of radiation and thermodynamics, and someone asked) and the topic of blindness and retina damage were discussed. Several of the accounts you have put forth sound EXACTLY like the sort of hallucinations and damage that we covered while speaking of this topic. Now, I find this much more likely than the idea that the earth suddenly stopped in its orbit and whizzed through the cosmos in order to make the sun dance in this way, throwing everyone and everything off the surface and destroying everything without anyone outside Fatima noticing.
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07-10-2013, 12:31 PM
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(07-10-2013 11:54 AM)natachan Wrote:  As to Fatima, a few weeks ago we were discussing the sun and the temperature and energy given off by them (we were on the topic of radiation and thermodynamics, and someone asked) and the topic of blindness and retina damage were discussed. Several of the accounts you have put forth sound EXACTLY like the sort of hallucinations and damage that we covered while speaking of this topic. Now, I find this much more likely than the idea that the earth suddenly stopped in its orbit and whizzed through the cosmos in order to make the sun dance in this way, throwing everyone and everything off the surface and destroying everything without anyone outside Fatima noticing.

Yep.

Either it didn't happen (hint: it didn't happen) or else the miracle was the fact that nobody else on the planet noticed such a stunning aberration.

By which logic everything we don't notice is miraculous. And we're right back to that last refuge of the willfully obtuse, construing absence of evidence as constituting evidence. This is not what sane people do.

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07-10-2013, 01:03 PM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2013 01:08 PM by NoSkyDaddy.)
RE: Ron Wyatt Finds The Blood Of Christ,Won't Produce It
(07-10-2013 11:54 AM)natachan Wrote:  As to Fatima, a few weeks ago we were discussing the sun and the temperature and energy given off by them (we were on the topic of radiation and thermodynamics, and someone asked) and the topic of blindness and retina damage were discussed. Several of the accounts you have put forth sound EXACTLY like the sort of hallucinations and damage that we covered while speaking of this topic. Now, I find this much more likely than the idea that the earth suddenly stopped in its orbit and whizzed through the cosmos in order to make the sun dance in this way, throwing everyone and everything off the surface and destroying everything without anyone outside Fatima noticing.
What he said is actually far more ridiculous. He says the sun, which is thousands of times more massive, made huge leaps and turns to make it dance in this way. Cos' hee'z kraaaZay!Hobo

excubitor Wrote:The fact is, that scientists have no clue how gravity is generated. None at all.
Actually, science has proven that forces derive from the exchange of force particles called bosons. The electromagnetic force has photons (detected and verified). The strong nuclear force has gluons (detected and verified). The weak nuclear force has W and Z particles (detected and verified). The once theoretical Higg's boson, responsible for mass and inertia has been detected and is in the process of being verified. It is only a matter of time before the graviton (responsible for gravity) is discovered, pushing back the receding horizon of ignorance that is religion once more.

excubitor Wrote:The fact that the universe can spin around us in 24 hours is a perpetual miracle.
Thanks for the topper on your Xian tree of insanity. The farthest galaxies away are at a distance of appx. 13 billion light years giving them an orbital circumference of 81.64 billion light years. To make one 24 hour circuit these galaxies would have to travel just a tad bit over the speed of light (3.4016 billion light years per hour). The gross violation of known physical laws brings the probability of Geo-centrism to precisely zero (0). Your dependence on "miracles" to make your theories work out is exactly hat makes them weak.

You can lead a theist to reason, but, you cannot make him think.
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